Karl Keating's E-Letter of June 29, 2004 - Page 5

Kevan · #61 Jul 5, '04, 5:58 am

It might shed a little light on the topic to consider the case of pedophiles, whether homo- or heterosexual.

These people are deeply disordered as well. In most cases their condition is "unchosen." For one reason or another, they find themselves with this unnatural attraction toward little children.

What do we say to them? "Oh, God made you this way and he wants you to be fulfilled. We'll write a liturgy blessing your next seduction."

No, despite whatever explanation may be offered for their condition, we still say "It's wrong and you can't do it, even though you feel like doing it."

Some things are wrong, no matter how you feel.

Salena · #62 Jul 5, '04, 9:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevan

It might shed a little light on the topic to consider the case of pedophiles, whether homo- or heterosexual.

These people are deeply disordered as well. In most cases their condition is "unchosen." For one reason or another, they find themselves with this unnatural attraction toward little children.

What do we say to them? "Oh, God made you this way and he wants you to be fulfilled. We'll write a liturgy blessing your next seduction."

No, despite whatever explanation may be offered for their condition, we still say "It's wrong and you can't do it, even though you feel like doing it."

Some things are wrong, no matter how you feel.

I don't know how you could make such a comparison. A pedophile forces a child into sex. This is abuse. Homosexuality is mutual consent between two adults. As I see it, there is no comparison here.
My whole point is that as long as we accept fornication, pornography, and masturbation (not to mention sodomy in the bonds of marriage as someone mentioned earlier) then we should not be surprised by the homosexual movement and why should we be?
Secondly, how many people who live together and later marry actually confess to the sin of fornication and if they do, are really sorry? If they do how much mercy will God show this person considering they knew it was wrong, but did it anyway knowing that they could later confess?
And yes! Jesus would be friends with homosexuals. How could you compare homosexuals to the Pharisees? The Pharisees did not struggle with their inner desire to be corrupt. Jesus does have more compassion for homosexuals.
I agree there are many out there who want to rub it in our noses and go to extremes to make us accept their lifestyle. This group I don't have much compassion for, but all homosexuals do not do that.
I am repulsed by the gay parades, but I'm also repulsed by the blindness of those who think their sins aren't as bad as those of the gay population.

bquinnan · #63 Jul 5, '04, 12:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Keating

You seem to be under the impression that the Church bases its teaching on homosexuality on "empirical evidence" of the sort that one might find in, say, an academic study. This is not the case.

This is a great point. Through the Church, God has revealed moral truths to us that we might not be able to figure out on our own through studies. We can observe the possible causes and consequences of an act to speculate about why it might be immoral, but those speculations can be erroneous. But even so, such errors would not disprove the correctness of the Church's moral teachings.

BGlez · #64 Jul 7, '04, 2:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findnmway

I don't know how you could make such a comparison. A pedophile forces a child into sex. This is abuse. Homosexuality is mutual consent between two adults. As I see it, there is no comparison here.
My whole point is that as long as we accept fornication, pornography, and masturbation (not to mention sodomy in the bonds of marriage as someone mentioned earlier) then we should not be surprised by the homosexual movement and why should we be?
Secondly, how many people who live together and later marry actually confess to the sin of fornication and if they do, are really sorry? If they do how much mercy will God show this person considering they knew it was wrong, but did it anyway knowing that they could later confess?
And yes! Jesus would be friends with homosexuals. How could you compare homosexuals to the Pharisees? The Pharisees did not struggle with their inner desire to be corrupt. Jesus does have more compassion for homosexuals.
I agree there are many out there who want to rub it in our noses and go to extremes to make us accept their lifestyle. This group I don't have much compassion for, but all homosexuals do not do that.
I am repulsed by the gay parades, but I'm also repulsed by the blindness of those who think their sins aren't as bad as those of the gay population.

"We" don't accept fornication, pornography or masturbation. We recognize these things as falings of our weak carnal nature and I see enough evidence out there that shows that we do not accept it. Just look at what the Church teaches about these things and you will clearly see that we do not accept them.

Somebody earlier mentioned the difference between natural acts and unnatural acts (as far as homo and hetero relations go).

Even though Jesus did not seek to be friends with the Pharisees, He did not stop loving them. He chose to disassociate Himself from them because of the hardness of their hearts.

Anyone who truly repented and changed his ways, Jesus welcomed. Not that He did not welcome people with hard hearts, just that those people did not accept the invitation. My Bible does not definitely tell me if the Pharisees struggled with the inner desire to be corrupt, it just tells me that their hearts were far from God.

And that is the biggest difference between us and Jesus, He had compassion for ALL but, in justice and fairness, did not associate with those who refused to change their ways. There were Pharisees who heard His message, you can even read of those who did not want to crucify Him, but were following scripture so that God's will would be fulfilled.

BGlez

Courage4JC · #65 Jul 7, '04, 9:08 am

"Your friend says he always sensed that he was a homosexual, but his 'always' would not have extended backward past puberty. Pre-adolescents, almost by definition, are unaware of internal sexual impulses. At best your friend has retrojected his present state into his earliest years in order to justify himself."

Karl,
By God's grace, the Lord has taken me out of the active homosexual life for 10 years now!! PRAISE GOD!!! I enjoyed your e-letter and agree with you on your points except with the above quote.

Most homosexuals have had the attraction to the same sex, before puberty, (including myself). I don't know of any that said they had a "sexual attraction" to the same sex before puberty. There is a big difference. I am currently a student at the Franciscan University of Steubenville and for a paper in my Christian Moral Principles class, I read Dr. Ardweg's book, "The Battle for Normality- A self help therapy for homosexuals". Little did I know that the Lord would use this to bring so much healing to my heart. (Thank You Heavenly Father!!!!!!!) I can't get into everything but I did want to share what I learned regarding this "attraction".

The Lord showed me that the "attraction" to the same sex before puberty, was actually an admiration of males who had masculine or physical traits that as a child, I felt I lacked. In puberty, this attraction or "admiration" became sexualized. I believe this is the case for many homosexuals. For those that say they had this attraction before puberty, it is very real. They are not making this up to justify their sin. Same sex attraction is a symptom of deeper problems such as gender inferiority complex. I believe that to suggest, "retrojected his present state into his earliest years in order to justify himself" can cause this person to build up further walls from ever hearing the truth that there is in Jesus Christ.

Otherwise, Karl, the article was very good. May God continue to bless you and thank you for saying yes to God and for all your hard work.
Your brother in Christ,
David

gitsch · #66 Jul 7, '04, 9:25 pm

Here is the resonse I got from a gay Catholic that I have respected for many years. (note: He has no idea who Karl Keating is)

[COLOR=MediumTurquoise
"In my opinion, the person that answered this question is doing so because he has assured a Bishop somewhere that he will write a response to religious questions always toeing the Catholic line just as the Pope and the Catechism tell us to. And as I suspected, as I got further into the letter, the tone was one of untruths stated as facts, admonition and intolerance. He is doing his job well but he is hurting many gay and lesbian Catholics with his advice.
I. If you buy his first sentence then he has you hooked and of course everything falls into place after that. Everything makes sense in his world once you believe that homosexuality is equivalent to the "diseased state" of alcoholism. It is not. If you do believe that homosexuality is the equivalent but opposite of heterosexuality then you could substitute the word heterosexuality into his sentence. So it is ridiculous as it was originally written using the word homosexual. Would you equate heterosexuality with alcoholism? Of course not. Our sexuality is not equivalent to a diseased state. All kinds of research is going on now and some of it points to homosexuality being environmental and some being genetic. As science gets better we will get a better answer. I have a feeling though when the answer is found, it won't be the evidence the Pope is praying for.
II. You can ask the majority of homosexual men, including myself, and if they would speak honestly as I am doing now, we can tell you that we most certainly do remember "internal sexual impulses" towards men at a very early age. For me I remember back to when I was in 3rd or 4th grade. We knew what we were feeling; we just didn't have the vocabulary or wherewithal to put it into words. My brothers raised in the same household with the same parents. How did I wind up being gay? Was my environment so different from theirs? I don't think so. In my opinion it is genetic. And whether you call it "genetically disposed" or flat out genetic, it is in the genes that God arranged for me at conception.
IV. We have already discussed the fallacy of equating heterosexuality with alcoholism. He also later feebly tries to equate homosexuality with kleptomania.
V. I am totally blown away with the last sentence. Essentially what he is saying is people with "substantial faith" would be willing to overlook the "human condition" of a pedophile priest sexually violating a child. Tthat is not right. Every Catholic should be outraged that the Catholic Church turned its head for over a generation or more and turned its back on its own Catholic children and hid, protected and obstructed justice when its priests were accused of abusing those children. After this point I lost any respect I had for Karl Keating. If he believes that, then I have said a fervent prayer for him.
Finally, (sorry you said you wanted my opinion on this) We have to go back to the bible and specifically the gospels (that is all we have available to us) and ask ourselves "what did Jesus say about homosexuality?" And the answer is nothing. He never mentioned it. Paul on the other hand did on the other hand and I will get and share with you the biblical research that shows that when Paul comes out against "homosexuality" he uses the Greek word for it that when translated means "sexual intercourse with temple boys." Who would argue that this definition of homosexuality as Paul meant it is wrong? No one should.
Anyway, I am not an expert and cannot argue Catholic doctrine beyond my limited abilities, but this was my response to the article you sent to me. I want to learn more about how I am to live as a gay Catholic and still have salvation. I have discerned deep in my heart that I can.[/color]

DVIN CKS · #67 Jul 8, '04, 5:00 am

For those who are repulsed by "gay parades" I ask: Are you also repulsed by MTV videos that show women (and men) grabbing themselves in inappropriate places or simulating sex with poles or other individuals? What about the city of Las Vegas...are you repulsed by all the "selling of sex" that goes on there? What about TV, magazine, and other advertisements that use our sexuality to sell things? Let's not even forget the infamous half time show at the super bowl....repulsed? You should be. Heterosexuals flaunt their sexuality SO much more than homosexuals do. As a society, we are bombarded with messages in the media that premarital sex is the norm and okay and that acting out in non-traditional ways (sexually speaking) is accepted and expected. Gay parades seem like a drop in the bucket compared to what the heterosexuals get away with.

Salena · #68 Jul 8, '04, 6:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVIN CKS

For those who are repulsed by "gay parades" I ask: Are you also repulsed by MTV videos that show women (and men) grabbing themselves in inappropriate places or simulating sex with poles or other individuals? What about the city of Las Vegas...are you repulsed by all the "selling of sex" that goes on there? What about TV, magazine, and other advertisements that use our sexuality to sell things? Let's not even forget the infamous half time show at the super bowl....repulsed? You should be. Heterosexuals flaunt their sexuality SO much more than homosexuals do. As a society, we are bombarded with messages in the media that premarital sex is the norm and okay and that acting out in non-traditional ways (sexually speaking) is accepted and expected. Gay parades seem like a drop in the bucket compared to what the heterosexuals get away with.

I totally agree and that has been my whole point concerning this e-letter. I am so tired of hearing about how bad the homosexual lifestyle is when very little is being said about sins committed by heterosexuals. It is true that it is harmful to our communities and our country as a whole, but so is fornication. In my opinion it can be worse because it seems to go unnoticed. Although the Church teaches it is a sin, most of it's members treat it lightly in comparison to homosexuality.
My sister is a lesbian and she is judged much more harshly than other family members who are living in mortal sin. Karl says homosexuality is worse than fornication. That's really a mute point considering that both sins seperate us from God and both are equally harmful to society. Homosexuals don't hide their sinful lifestyle anymore and why should they? What social moral standard have we (heterosexuals) set up for them to live by? We can't complain about the homosexual community as long as we (silently) accept other serious sins of the flesh.
And yes, Jesus would be friends with a homosexual just as he was a friend to Mary Magdalene.

BGlez · #69 Jul 9, '04, 8:28 am

To gitsch,

I read the response of your friend and pondered on it somewhat, here are some thoughts I thought merit mentioning

-Jesus did not write a single word of the Bible we know and love today. The gospels are the account of the apostle's life with Jesus, a "Matthew says that Jesus said....." kind of thing if you will. If you accept the gospel accounts, why reject the following letters and epistles? I accept them as inspired by the Holy Spirit to say exactly what God wants us to know.

- The authors of the gospels admit and mention that they did not write everything that Jesus did, so it is natural for me to infer that they did not write everything He said either. If one of the apostles saw it fit and necessary to write about homosexuals when listing those who would not inherit the Kingdom, it was for a reason.

- Excuse me for being repetitous, but in the Old testament it was "Isaiah says that God said...." or whoever the writer happens to be, Jesus was not humanly present then. Is this a reason to reject the Old testament? Be very careful about taking things from the Bible piecemeal or out of context.

-In your friends opinion, homosexuality is genetic. So does this mean that his parents and siblings are all carriers of the "gay gene"? Is there a history of gay people in his family? Or is it more of a genetic anomaly like down syndrome, dwarfism or others like that? But they don't like the word "anomaly" correct?

Do we have a "tall gene" and a "short gene"?
How about a "klepto gene"? Alcoholic gene? Drug addict gene? Athletic gene? Bookworm gene?

We all have afinities for some things and aversion to others. Then we have God given abilites that help or hinder those afinities. Then we make conscious decisions based on these abilities and afinities and aversions. People can chose to not sin (yes, this goes for everyone!) but because of our weaknesses, our pride, our stubborness or ignorance, or just giving in to carnal pleasures, we don't choose as wisely as God would like us to.

In response to his last question, how to live as a gay catholic and still have salvation. It is no different than a heterosexual single catholic: Chastity and continence, and follow God's word. Anything short of that is asking the impossible. I may be reading into his response, but if he means that he wants to have the gay lifestyle and have a gay partner, then it is no use to continue the conversation, he wants to do his own thing, not what God dictates.

And to Findnmway:

Jesus would be friends with repentant non practicing homosexuals who changed their ways. He would not be friends with persistently, hard hearted homosexuals. And He would love them all, in spite of their sinful nature.

God bless

BGlez

Ryan King · #70 Jul 9, '04, 11:56 am

With regard to homosexuality and its origins:

As far as being genetic, the scientist who discovered the gene for 21-trisomy (Down's Syndrome) has expressed strong doubts that a homosexuality gene will ever be found.
Some experts have theorized that homosexuality originates in what Freudians call the latency phase of a person's life. During this phase, (from around age six until the onset of puberty) a person's sexuality is hidden, channeled into other areas. In addition, this phase is called the homoerotic phase (I don't mean in any perverse or lewd sense), because a child at this age is attracted (not sexually) to people of the same sex. During this period, a child tends to identify more closely with his same-sex parent and siblings, and tends to show a relative preference toward children of the same sex as his closest companions. During this period, the child learns (from these important same-sex figures) what it means to be a boy or a girl. Eventually, with the onset of puberty, the attraction shifts to the opposite sex, and becomes sexualized.
However, with homosexuality, a child may not have strong same-sex figures in his family, or relations with such figure may prove distant. Moreover, whether by circumstance or by choice, the child's closest companions may be of the opposite sex. This means that the child's self-concept of what it means to be a boy or a girl may develop in a way divergent from the norm. Thus, with the onset of puberty, the child may emerge as a homosexual.

I hope you find this information useful.

Ryan King

mark a · #71 Jul 9, '04, 6:47 pm

CROSS vs. CRUCIFIX

I sure couldn't check all the posts here, so this may be covered already.

Isn't the reason for the empty cross really because that's how these groups "inherited" it from the early Protestants? Wasn't it taught by some of these early Protestants that having a Crucifix is idolatry?

DVIN CKS · #72 Jul 9, '04, 8:06 pm

I just find it ludicrous to be reading posters' opinions on who Jesus would be friends with and who he would not be friends with. Is anyone else getting annoyed with this?

As though we -- mere mortals -- could possibly know what thoughts, feelings or relationships Jesus - the divine savior - would or wouldn't have with us today in the 21st century. Are we so arrogant to boast who the savior would befriend and who he wouldn't? We don't have the advantage of knowing what is in another's heart the way Jesus does. I can't say with 100% certainty who Jesus would be friends with anymore than I can say who, with 100% certainty, will enjoy eternal life. Sure, I can make a pretty good assumption based on what I know the Church, Tradition and the Bible have to say....but an assumption is all I'm left with at the end of the day.

Philthy · #73 Jul 24, '04, 7:38 pm

Ah - whats a chat room without a few people getting ticked off! Here's the take home for now:

Homosexuality as a characteristic is probably not chosen nor genetic but a homosexual lifestyle always is.
We are all sinners and the last thing we need to be focusing on is other peoples sins! The sin in our own lives is the starting point - Got a plank!?
That much being said, part of "love one another" may be to reinforce church teaching to help those actively involved in any sin to be aware that "we love you, but its not OK"

" We must consider how to rouse one another to love and good works. We should not stay away from our assembley as is the custom of some, but encourage one another. And this all the more as you see the day is drawing near." Heb 10: 24 - 25