Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Vocations
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #46  
Old Jul 25, '11, 5:38 pm
JReducation's Avatar
JReducation JReducation is offline
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2007
Posts: 20,173
Religion: CATHOLIC
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Iím not a Jesuit, so I canít speak from experience. My feeling is that the problem that they may have had with renewal may be caused by many factors that are not always so visible.

We live in a very confused world and in very confusing times. Of course you get your vocations from the world around you. They donít just pop up. Many men will come in with confusion.

While they are a fraternity, St. Ignatius deliberately avoided giving them the structure that friars and monks had. They were the last religious order to be founded. They were rather strange even then. They were an order, but they did not have to live as an order. They were an order, because they made solemn vows. However, they did not have the common life that other orders have. Many of them traveled and lived alone for years at a time. Their only contact with other Jesuits was through mail. Itís very hard to have the close oversight by a superior, if you donít have that close community life. It must be even harder to have on-going formation.

They never had a rule of life. For example, other founders did not write a rule for their religious, but they adopted one of the existing rules. The Norbertines and the Dominicans live by the Rule of St. Augustine. The Cistercians, Camaldolese and Trappists live by the Rule of St. Benedict. Both of the Carmelite orders live by the Rule of St. Albert. All Franciscans live by one of the four rules written by St. Francis. St. Ignatius gave the Society a set of statutes; but it was clear from the beginning that these statutes were not as binding as a rule was. Ignatius did this deliberately. This allowed the Jesuits to revise their statutes according to the times. You canít do that with a rule. A rule is what it is. You canít change it. The only thing that you can do is to write a constitution. The purpose of a constitution is to explain what the rule means and to give you statutes and regulations on matters that are not addressed in the rule. Whatever is in the rule cannot be changed. If St. Benedict said that monks have to walk on water, then monks have to walk on water. Thatís that.

The Jesuits never had such a legal document. Ignatius never foresaw that his militia was going to become an international community of almost 20,000. My belief is that the further that you get from the founder and the original charism, the easier it is to become derailed. Ignatius intended for them to fly by the seat of their pants. They were soldiers and soldiers do that. However, I canít see how it can be easy to keep everyone on the same sheet of music. I wouldnít want to be the Superior General of the SJ.

I admire the fact that despite the problems, they continue to try. They donít give up. They just had a general chapter and the Holy Father publicly called them to task. The capitulars responded with great affection and humility. They have many problem children, but they continue to try to be better religious, better priests and better Jesuits. We donít always get it right all the time, but the important part is to keep trying. I donít think that there is ever a resting place where everything happens naturally and easily.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
__________________
Fraternally,

Brother JR, FFV

"Forget not love."


How long have I waited . . .

Last edited by JReducation; Jul 25, '11 at 5:41 pm. Reason: typo
  #47  
Old Jul 25, '11, 5:51 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post

I admire the fact that despite the problems, they continue to try. They donít give up. They just had a general chapter and the Holy Father publicly called them to task. The capitulars responded with great affection and humility.
That is quite incredible to me. It must have been difficult for the Holy Father to do that and certainly for them to hear it. It shows much of their character and love for God and Church for them to handle it as you described.


Man, I have a long way to go...
  #48  
Old Jul 25, '11, 5:54 pm
JReducation's Avatar
JReducation JReducation is offline
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2007
Posts: 20,173
Religion: CATHOLIC
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
That is quite incredible to me. It must have been difficult for the Holy Father to do that and certainly for them to hear it. It shows much of their character and love for God and Church for them to handle it as you described.


Man, I have a long way to go...
They actually wrote a public response to the Holy Father. It was published on the internet. I'm talking about less than a year.

If I can find it, I'll post the link. I don't recall what it was called.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
__________________
Fraternally,

Brother JR, FFV

"Forget not love."


How long have I waited . . .
  #49  
Old Jul 25, '11, 5:55 pm
Limerickman Limerickman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 25, 2011
Posts: 151
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

In respect of the Jesuits, the academic requirements to become one are daunting I think.
  #50  
Old Jul 25, '11, 5:55 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
They actually wrote a public response to the Holy Father. It was published on the internet. I'm talking about less than a year.

If I can find it, I'll post the link. I don't recall what it was called.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
That would be interesting to read for sure.

Peace,
  #51  
Old Jul 25, '11, 5:56 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Limerickman View Post
In respect of the Jesuits, the academic requirements to become one are daunting I think.
That is my understanding as well.
  #52  
Old Jul 25, '11, 6:20 pm
JReducation's Avatar
JReducation JReducation is offline
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2007
Posts: 20,173
Religion: CATHOLIC
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

I found it. Before you go to the link, I apologize. I was wrong on those dates. One of my brothers has corrected me. The events took place in 2008. The document was finally released in 2010.

With Renewed Vigor and Zeal

It's well written . . . very Jesuit

No wonder it took almost two years to translate into English.

The Dominican would respond with, "We will obey. Now let's analyze it to make sure we understand."

The Franciscan would respond with, "How high do you want us to jump?" After the fact they will ask, "He did say jump, right?"

The Jesuits need 54 pages to say "Yes Sir".

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
__________________
Fraternally,

Brother JR, FFV

"Forget not love."


How long have I waited . . .
  #53  
Old Jul 25, '11, 6:33 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
I found it. Before you go to the link, I apologize. I was wrong on those dates. One of my brothers has corrected me. The events took place in 2008. The document was finally released in 2010.

With Renewed Vigor and Zeal

It's well written . . . very Jesuit

No wonder it took almost two years to translate into English.

The Dominican would respond with, "We will obey. Now let's analyze it to make sure we understand."

The Franciscan would respond with, "How high do you want us to jump?" After the fact they will ask, "He did say jump, right?"

The Jesuits need 54 pages to say "Yes Sir".

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF



Thanks for that Brother! I look forward to reading it.
  #54  
Old Jul 25, '11, 8:05 pm
choliks's Avatar
choliks choliks is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: August 24, 2009
Posts: 1,608
Religion: Katoliko
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

If I read this a couple of years before I got married, I'd probably be knocking on the Jesuit pre-novitiate door again.
__________________


Domine Iesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei, peccatoris.

Fratres, orare pro me peccatore.
  #55  
Old Sep 19, '11, 8:14 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
I found it. Before you go to the link, I apologize. I was wrong on those dates. One of my brothers has corrected me. The events took place in 2008. The document was finally released in 2010.

With Renewed Vigor and Zeal

It's well written . . . very Jesuit

No wonder it took almost two years to translate into English.

The Dominican would respond with, "We will obey. Now let's analyze it to make sure we understand."

The Franciscan would respond with, "How high do you want us to jump?" After the fact they will ask, "He did say jump, right?"

The Jesuits need 54 pages to say "Yes Sir".

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
I did read the article. You are correct, it is extremely well written. I'm an academic myself but the style of writing is so different from what I do (biological sciences) that I have force myself to slow down and re-read from time to time.

Thanks again for posting that link. It was a very interesting read...
  #56  
Old Sep 19, '11, 8:18 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

http://www.gonzagabulletin.com/homos...6#.TnNxO81foYY

I saw this article in a link from RealCatholicTV. Unfortunately, this article contains such a mis-representation of Catholic doctrine that even I can spot it without effort. Assuming the article quoted people accurately, it is highly concerning.

Frankly, it is things like this which lead to people asking the types of questions that spawned this thread to begin with. From the article discussed above, it would seem that the SJ has gone a long way towards righting the ship, but when you see stuff like this, it becomes unfortunately obvious that there is a bit further to go.
  #57  
Old Sep 25, '11, 8:14 am
odile53's Avatar
odile53 odile53 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 2,327
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Here's a link to a Wiki abstract about Jesuit formation. The academic requirements alone are downright scary!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_formation

Obviously, being female, I'm certainly not a candidate for this. But I am a product of Jesuit education--BFA from Fordham, MA from Fordham, and now BS from Canisius College. A good number of my professors were Jesuits, and I can tell you this much, they're great instructors, and certainly expect academic excellence. That translated into this for me--if you expect to do well GPA wise, and are working (at the time of my fine arts degrees I was a ballet dancer with NY City Ballet,) best to take only one course per semester from a Jesuit, because it will be demanding! No "padding a paper" with these guys, as I learned firsthand as a freshman! That one "padded paper" came back to me with so much red ink on it that it looked like someone had bled on it.

From what I read in the Wiki link, you can expect to have study equivalent to at least two baccalaureates and at least two advanced degrees, in addition to formation in the order.

For myself, I'm very happy that I had a Jesuit education. They taught me critical thinking. I recently joined a Jesuit-run parish here and am doing the Spiritual Exercises in the 19th Annotation, and have a Jesuit as a spiritual director. I haven't encountered anything during the course of the Exercises (I'm in the second week) that would run contrary to any of the teachings of the Magisterium, and have been driven by them to not only study Scripture, but reflect on it and get just about everything I can out of the readings. I believe I have never been closer to the Lord than I am now, and I have the Exercises under the direction of a very sensible, very traditional, and very holy priest to thank for that.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that the order catches the flak that it does, though: Historically, they're intrepid, on the fronts of exploration (and evangelization) of the world, as well as on the fronts of knowledge and study. When humans colonize Mars, there will probably be a Jesuit on one of the first spacecraft there. You take a large group of men pushing the envelope in such a way, every now and then there's bound to be someone who goes through the envelope. Remember, their motto is, "Magis," meaning "more and more." That's one of their charisms, and there is still a need for it. The Holy Spirit wouldn't allow it to continue to exist if there wasn't. Personally, I wish that people who aren't called to that sort of charism would just stop picking on them.
  #58  
Old Sep 25, '11, 8:30 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
Forum Master
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2004
Posts: 12,750
Religion: Byzantine Ruthenian "Traditional" Catholic
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Quote:
Originally Posted by odile53 View Post
Here's a link to a Wiki abstract about Jesuit formation. The academic requirements alone are downright scary!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit_formation
As I have said before Wikipedia is not a good source to use for anything, especially religious things.

Just a quick look at the article you link to shows errors. The sequence of formation is wrong. The article has a Jesuit being ordained before making solemn (final) vows.

Canonically to be ordained a religious must be in final vows.
  #59  
Old Sep 25, '11, 10:04 am
SuscipeMeDomine SuscipeMeDomine is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2007
Posts: 4,837
Religion: Catholic, Obl.OSB
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath View Post
Just a quick look at the article you link to shows errors. The sequence of formation is wrong. The article has a Jesuit being ordained before making solemn (final) vows.
Jesuits ARE ordained before making their final vows.

After a two-year novitiate Jesuits make perpetual vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience [more info]. They continue with their first studies, regency (ministry), and theological studies. Next comes ordination to the diaconate then priesthood. Then comes tertianship (more formation including a second 30-day retreat), and finally final vows [more info].

Unlike many (most?) religious, they never make temporary vows. So in that sense they DO make lifetime vows before being ordained. But they also make a final set of vows after perhaps 10 years as a Jesuit.
  #60  
Old Sep 25, '11, 11:46 am
JReducation's Avatar
JReducation JReducation is offline
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2007
Posts: 20,173
Religion: CATHOLIC
Default Re: Are The Jesuits a Viable Option for a Faithful Catholic???

Everyone is confusing the profession of vows.

Every member of the Society of Jesus makes temporary vows and then perpetual vows. These are simple vows, like those of sisters and religious who belong to congregations, but they are perpetual.

A Jesuit may be ordained a deacon and a priest after perpetual profession. Canon Law requires that a religious must have completed his religious formation before ordination, if he's to be a cleric.

Now . . . the Society has additional priestly formation after ordination, not religious formation. Religious formation is finished when they make perpetual vows. They continue with this formation after ordination. At the end of this formation they make solemn vows.

In other words, they renew their profession of vows, but this time, it is elevated to the status of solemn vows.

The confusion comes in because, aside from the Jesuits, the only other religious who have the privilege to make solemn vows are monks and friars. Everyone else makes simple vows.

In our orders, Carmelites, Franciscans, Dominicans, Benedictines, Cistercians, etc. we make both perpetual and solemn profession in one rite of profession. The Jesuits divide it into three.

The first time around, they make simple temporary vows, just like every other religious.

The second time around, they make simple perpetual vows, just like Clerks regular and sisters who belong to congregations.

The third time around is only for priests, they make solemn vows. Jesuits have lay brothers. The lay brothers never make solemn vows. St. Ignatius deemed solemn vows so sacred that he did not trust any religiuos who was not a priest with these vows.

This is why Brother David was confused. This whole idea of separating perpetual vows from solemn vows and the whole idea of lay brothers is foreign to Carmelites, Franciscans, Benedictines, Cistercians and Trappists. We have monks and friars. Some are priests and some are not. But everyone makes solemn vows at the time of perpetual profession. We have two profession ceremonies, not three.

It should also be pointed out that not every Jesuit priest is allowed to make solemn vows. If the superior feels that the sacredness of solemn vows is beyond the individual, he can deny him permission to renew his perpetual vows in a solemn profession.

Among friars and monks, if you're not capable of living solemn vows, you are asked to leave. No one can remain in simple perpetual vows.

The Jesuits combine the life of an order and the life of a congregation into one community. What do I mean? Only members of religious orders can make solemn vows. Members of religious congregations may never make solemn vows. The Church reserves solemn vows for a select few. Outside of religious orders, the only other Catholics that make solemn vows are spouses. The vows of marriage are solemn vows.

Stop and think of how serious the marriage vows are. That's how serious the solemn vows of friars, monks and some Jesuits are.

This point of solemn vows almost voids the question of this thread. If th Apostolic See beleived that the Jesuits aer not a viable option for Catholic men, it would strip them of the privilege of solemn vows. Most religious are not allowed to make them, yet many Jesuits are allowed. The Church does not take this lightly. It's very hard to get out of solemn vows. Only a pope can dispense from this obligation and only under very serious circumstances.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
__________________
Fraternally,

Brother JR, FFV

"Forget not love."


How long have I waited . . .
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Vocations

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8304Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5071CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: mountee
4356Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: johnthebaptist2
4035OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: 3DOCTORS
3853SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3616Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3264Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3212Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Rifester
3201Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3069For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Theresa DeSensi



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 4:44 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.