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  #1  
Old May 21, '05, 8:35 pm
DavidJoseph DavidJoseph is offline
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Default Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

I often hear Archbishop Annibale Bugnini brought up regarding the alleged "evil" of the Novus Ordo Mass. It's rumored that he was a Freemason, and there are those who claim that because of that he served as the principal "architect" of the Novus Ordo Mass just so he could make the Mass into something less than Catholic. But even if the Freemason rumors are true, how can I explain to someone why that doesn't make the Novus Ordo intrinsically bad?
  #2  
Old May 22, '05, 12:12 am
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DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidJoseph
... regarding the alleged "evil" of the Novus Ordo Mass.... how can I explain to someone why that doesn't make the Novus Ordo intrinsically bad?
Forget Bugnini. Maybe the guy was a nut or a sinner, and maybe he wasn't - so what?

If this person thinks Novus Ordo is "evil," ask him to point out the MOST evil portion of it. Where does it really go over-the-top? Ask him to identify the specific portion of the Mass, and explain WHY this is part is "evil."

For the record, I think Novus Ordo is a dreadful form (having come from a high-church Anglican background, where they know how to do an English-language "mass" right!). But it can be aesthetically bad and still be perfectly good and valid.
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  #3  
Old May 22, '05, 12:22 am
slinky1882 slinky1882 is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidJoseph
I often hear Archbishop Annibale Bugnini brought up regarding the alleged "evil" of the Novus Ordo Mass. It's rumored that he was a Freemason, and there are those who claim that because of that he served as the principal "architect" of the Novus Ordo Mass just so he could make the Mass into something less than Catholic. But even if the Freemason rumors are true, how can I explain to someone why that doesn't make the Novus Ordo intrinsically bad?
And somehow, Bugnini pulled the whole idea off with all the later Popes affirming the Novus Ordo Mass as a valid Mass......... Thanks and God Bless.
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  #4  
Old May 22, '05, 12:41 am
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DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by slinky1882
And somehow, Bugnini pulled the whole idea off with all the later Popes affirming the Novus Ordo Mass as a valid Mass........
Maybe that's because it IS a valid Mass. Maybe Bugnini didn't "pull off" anything.

If Novus Ordo is invalid, what SPECIFIC part of it is invalid, and WHY?

(and I realize that Slinky's post (to which I am responding) is not questioning the validity of the Mass - quite the contrary. I am adding to these comments with further questions which show the absurdity of the whole topic).
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Popes are designated "the Great" by popular acclaim. Please join me in always referring to Pope St. John Paul-2 as "St. John Paul the Great."

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  #5  
Old May 22, '05, 12:45 am
slinky1882 slinky1882 is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidFilmer
Maybe that's because it IS a valid Mass. Maybe Bugnini didn't "pull off" anything.

If Novus Ordo is invalid, what SPECIFIC part of it is invalid, and WHY?
LOL, exactly, I was being sarcastic. The idea that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid and pulled off by one man against the Divinely protected Church during the tenures of several different Popes is preposterous. David Filmer's question are excellent as a reponse. Thanks and God Bless.
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  #6  
Old May 23, '05, 11:31 pm
aspergesme aspergesme is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
I often hear Archbishop Annibale Bugnini brought up regarding the alleged "evil" of the Novus Ordo Mass. It's rumored that he was a Freemason, and there are those who claim that because of that he served as the principal "architect" of the Novus Ordo Mass just so he could make the Mass into something less than Catholic. But even if the Freemason rumors are true, how can I explain to someone why that doesn't make the Novus Ordo intrinsically bad?

I do believe that he was indeed found to be a Freemason, an was excommunicated for this. ( I'll look for refernces)

He himself admited to removing all Catholic Dogma offensive to Protestants from the prayers in the Mass. And I'm not quite sure that based on the validity of this statement and the ties to Freemasonry you can explain that the NOM is not bad. Valid, Yes. Bad, ?
  #7  
Old May 24, '05, 10:14 am
Pariah Pirana Pariah Pirana is offline
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Cool Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidFilmer
Forget Bugnini. Maybe the guy was a nut or a sinner, and maybe he wasn't - so what?

If this person thinks Novus Ordo is "evil," ask him to point out the MOST evil portion of it. Where does it really go over-the-top? Ask him to identify the specific portion of the Mass, and explain WHY this is part is "evil."

For the record, I think Novus Ordo is a dreadful form (having come from a high-church Anglican background, where they know how to do an English-language "mass" right!). But it can be aesthetically bad and still be perfectly good and valid.
All thouse Protestants know how to do is to put on a complicated prayer meeting -- complete with a verger.
  #8  
Old May 24, '05, 10:26 am
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

All the stuff about Bugnini is basically paranoid rad trad conspiracy theory. I've said it before, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they also accused him of being the lone gunman on the grassy knoll in Dealy Plaza in Dallas in 1963. No, wait, that couldn't have been him, he was busy in Rome, dancing naked on the steps of Saint Peter as he let the smoke of Satan into Holy Mother Church. Or was that Elvis?

The Vicars of Christ, the Successors to Saint Peter, promulgated the NO Mass and offered it themselves, four of them now (Paul VI, JPI, JPII, and Benedict XVI). The Church cannot be lead into error by the head shepherds.
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  #9  
Old May 24, '05, 10:31 am
fix fix is offline
 
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV
All the stuff about Bugnini is basically paranoid rad trad conspiracy theory. I've said it before, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they also accused him of being the lone gunman on the grassy knoll in Dealy Plaza in Dallas in 1963. No, wait, that couldn't have been him, he was busy in Rome, dancing naked on the steps of Saint Peter as he let the smoke of Satan into Holy Mother Church. Or was that Elvis?

The Vicars of Christ, the Successors to Saint Peter, promulgated the NO Mass and offered it themselves, four of them now (Paul VI, JPI, JPII, and Benedict XVI). The Church cannot be lead into error by the head shepherds.
I am no conspiracy nut, but one man can do much damage. Look at Judas.
  #10  
Old May 24, '05, 10:43 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Talking Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by fix
I am no conspiracy nut, but one man can do much damage. Look at Judas.
Hmmm, damage? or redemption? With out Judas there would have been no resurrection.

So even if you find something bad with Archbishop Bugnini, God can use his work for Good.

Anyways, the Mass was promulgated by the Pope and the Magisterium, not one individual.

It is Valid and efficacious.
  #11  
Old May 24, '05, 11:26 am
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by fix
I am no conspiracy nut, but one man can do much damage. Look at Judas.
Point taken, but was Judas not predestined to do as he did? Obviously, he had a choice, but do we not believe, as Catholic Christians, that Christ had to die, chose to die for our redemption?
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  #12  
Old May 24, '05, 11:42 am
Fergal Fergal is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

The Holy Mass is full of physical actualities and invisible realities. Just have a read of this little pamphlet which has an imprimatur.

http://www.greatcrusade.org/greatcru...manuscript.pdf
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Ruins: the grass is high here Christ arrived, passed by
here the Mass was said.
The church across the way, here Christ comes every day
here the Mass is said.
Until that secret hour, when Christ returns in power
the Mass will still be said
  #13  
Old May 24, '05, 1:03 pm
EddieArent EddieArent is offline
 
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Of coarse Archbishop Bugnini was just the greatest ever. C'mon being sent over to Iran after all his "good work"? That's a place where he ministered to millions of Catholics!
  #14  
Old May 24, '05, 1:05 pm
Steve Green Steve Green is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Excellent point Eddie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  #15  
Old May 24, '05, 1:30 pm
fix fix is offline
 
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Default Re: Archbishop Bugnini and the Novus Ordo Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath
Hmmm, damage? or redemption? With out Judas there would have been no resurrection.

So even if you find something bad with Archbishop Bugnini, God can use his work for Good.

Anyways, the Mass was promulgated by the Pope and the Magisterium, not one individual.

It is Valid and efficacious.
None of that refutes the argument that Bugnini may have been the etiology of much confusion and turmoil.
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