The best Catholic apologist of our time? - Page 5

Cinette · #61 Jun 14, '11, 12:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeyMoe1287

Actually, as far as I know, he accepts most Catholic teaching, with the exception of salvation by grace through faith and works, which I think he somewhat misunderstands and possibly remains his only reservation. He talks about that somewhere on his website.

That is interesting! My son is Protestant and recently we had some exchanges by email and he is a GREAT FAN OF CRAIG. One day I got frustrated with my son, so I introduced him to a great friend I made on CAF who converted and is now discerning a vocation to the Priesthood. He informed me the other day that my son has admitted that their exchanges were fruitfull because he now rejects Sola Scriptura!

So it follows that if my son is so keen on Craig and if Craig accepts most Catholic teaching then............ it is only A MATTER OF TIME!!!!!

Any suggestions?

Cinette

Cinette · #62 Jun 14, '11, 12:48 am

I thought I would share this in case anyone is interested.

My husband was atheist and, at one time, very pro Communist. That is mainly because the regime under which he lived was Fascist.

Anyway, when I returned to the Church we started a business and I would pray about it. He began to notice some real miracles as my prayers were answered. It was amazing!

Anyway, one day a Jewish Physicist (Gerald Schroeder) came to town promoting a book he had written called Genesis and the Big Bang. My husband suggested we attend his talk after which he bought the book. About a week later, as we were walking across a busy road my husband said "I think I believe in God"! It was a very dangerous thing to do as there was some traffic! He then went on to read The Face of God by the same author.

He then attended Mass with me every Sunday for 11 years. I kept quiet during all this time. One day a woman who sat near us came up to my husband and asked when he was going to convert! I blushed!

My husband said that the homilies were great and something which struck him was the devotion and reverence of members of the congregation. He converted and is now a daily communicant.

We all have different paths and what might influence one person is different from what might influence another. I love Robert Barron (so poetic and beautiful in his expression). Scott Hahn is so in love with the Church that it is catchy. Patrick Madrid is great! Tim Staples is great! ( find his style amusing because of his Southern Baptist influence - have you ever read his conversion story in Patrick Madrid's book "Surprised by truth" . gosh I have to end this as I have an important call!

Cinette

asd72 · #63 Jun 14, '11, 1:39 am

I also have a lot of respect for William Lane Craig. I listened to him in my agnostic days.

Trebor135 · #64 Jun 14, '11, 1:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinette

Any suggestions?

Where Catholic-Protestant differences are concerned, two words: Dave Armstrong.

HeyMoe1287 · #65 Jun 14, '11, 3:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinette

That is interesting! My son is Protestant and recently we had some exchanges by email and he is a GREAT FAN OF CRAIG. One day I got frustrated with my son, so I introduced him to a great friend I made on CAF who converted and is now discerning a vocation to the Priesthood. He informed me the other day that my son has admitted that their exchanges were fruitfull because he now rejects Sola Scriptura!

So it follows that if my son is so keen on Craig and if Craig accepts most Catholic teaching then............ it is only A MATTER OF TIME!!!!!

Any suggestions?

Cinette

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/...odcasting_main

Scroll down to 11/03/2008 to the talk titled "What About Catholicism?" and you can hear it from his own mouth

razredge · #66 Jun 15, '11, 6:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish_Polock

I would think it is speculation to imply that Mr. Craig is assured to thrash anyone. Your confidence in our apologist is disconcerting.

Have you seen Dr Craig in action? He inspires something resembling terror into the likes of Dawkins and I have never seen him lose a debate with anyone from Richard Carrier to Chris Hitchens.

Quote:

What does the fact that Dr. Sungenis has accepted one theory, over another theory, have to do with his ability to defend the Church? What is a crank exactly?

That's like saying, what does being a Holocaust denier like Bishop Williamson of SSPX
have to do with his ability to defend the Church - ostensibly nothing, but it's a matter of credibility.

Quote:

I too would love to see Dr. Sungenis debate the likes of Dawkins and Fr. Coyne (whom also has an interesting view on intelligent design) - along with the current director of the Vatican's Observatory. From what I understand, Fr. Coyne and Dr. Sungenis have had some communication in the past on the subject of Galileo, although nothing like a debate.

Oh, I'm pretty sure it's been more than 'some communication' knowing Fr Coyne and Sungenis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeyMoe1287

Actually, as far as I know, he accepts most Catholic teaching, with the exception of salvation by grace through faith and works, which I think he somewhat misunderstands and possibly remains his only reservation. He talks about that somewhere on his website.

Well, Dr Craig is quite sensible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackVk

The greatest Christian apologist of all time has got to be C.S. Lewis. I know he wasn't Catholic, but he respected Catholicism. And to answer a previous poster's question, his arguments are the bane of atheists. Bring Lewis to the table, and all you will hear from Dawkins or Hitchens or Harris is crickets chirping.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that - you underestimate the New Atheists - Lewis' rejection of evolution will prove an obstacle.

Rogare · #67 Jun 15, '11, 3:35 pm

All of the Catholic apologists I've heard were involved in Catholic - Protestant debates. I have never heard a Catholic apologist debate an atheist or member of another religion.

For those of you into Catholic apologetics, which method is the preferred one when debating nonbelievers?

I used to be REALLY into WLC (Craig), but I've become disenchanted with the evidentialist approach that he and many others use. A few years ago, I began reading Cornelius Van Til and Greg Bahnsen (Reformed guys), and have become a huge fan of presuppositional apologetics, particularly the transcendental argument. Do any Catholic apologists employ the presuppositional apologetic?

If you haven't heard it in action, I would highly recommend listening to the Greg Bahnsen - Gordon Stein debate; it's quite a spectacle!

Trebor135 · #68 Jun 15, '11, 4:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogare

All of the Catholic apologists I've heard were involved in Catholic - Protestant debates. I have never heard a Catholic apologist debate an atheist or member of another religion.

I've been wondering about that for a long time. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and Islam are crying out for attention from Catholic apologists. A church that goes back to the earliest days of Christianity--rather than those that began fifteen hundred years later--seems best equipped to (1) deal with issues like early attestation and defense of beliefs in the deity of Christ and the trinity, and (2) rely on its wealth of material on these subjects from all the Catholic scholars throughout the centuries.

It's still really irksome to hear Protestants garble explanation of devotion to Mary--especially anti-Catholic ones like White--when talking to Muslims about what the trinity is and what it isn't. (The Qur'an accuses Christians of deifying the mother of God, so this is pretty important.)

ESMDHokie77 · #69 Jun 15, '11, 4:56 pm

The only apologist that I know of who has material against mormonism and witnesses is Pat Madrid, in case you wanted to know.

tdgesq · #70 Jun 15, '11, 9:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogare

I used to be REALLY into WLC (Craig), but I've become disenchanted with the evidentialist approach that he and many others use. A few years ago, I began reading Cornelius Van Til and Greg Bahnsen (Reformed guys), and have become a huge fan of presuppositional apologetics, particularly the transcendental argument. Do any Catholic apologists employ the presuppositional apologetic?

We do employ presuppositional apologetics, but not in the same way as Reformed Presbyterians. The presuppositional approach of Van Til (followed by Bahnsen) has been largely discredited by other Reformed Protestants; primarily R.C. Sproul. The transcendental argument for the existence of God is flawed in a variety of ways, which is why it doesn't receive any serious attention today.

Quote:

If you haven't heard it in action, I would highly recommend listening to the Greg Bahnsen - Gordon Stein debate; it's quite a spectacle!

I have listened to that debate several times. Stein was a poor opponent in that he was unprepared to deal with his own presuppositions. I actually attended a seminar with Greg Bahnsen before his death. He wasn't as impressive as in the debate. Ironically, I also got to see Gordon Stein debate another Reformed Calvinist. Stein was terrible, worse than the debate with Bahnsen.

IMHO, you are heading down the wrong track with the presuppositionalists. I would recommend Craig over them in a heartbeat.

Windfish · #71 Jun 15, '11, 10:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdgesq

IMHO, you are heading down the wrong track with the presuppositionalists. I would recommend Craig over them in a heartbeat.

I would be interested in learning more about this. Presuppositional argument is basically refuting the other side by reductio ad absurdum. That is a valid way of reasoning, so I wonder why you would bag on it.

Rogare · #72 Jun 16, '11, 6:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdgesq

We do employ presuppositional apologetics, but not in the same way as Reformed Presbyterians. The presuppositional approach of Van Til (followed by Bahnsen) has been largely discredited by other Reformed Protestants; primarily R.C. Sproul. The transcendental argument for the existence of God is flawed in a variety of ways, which is why it doesn't receive any serious attention today.

I have listened to that debate several times. Stein was a poor opponent in that he was unprepared to deal with his own presuppositions. I actually attended a seminar with Greg Bahnsen before his death. He wasn't as impressive as in the debate. Ironically, I also got to see Gordon Stein debate another Reformed Calvinist. Stein was terrible, worse than the debate with Bahnsen.

IMHO, you are heading down the wrong track with the presuppositionalists. I would recommend Craig over them in a heartbeat.

Thanks for the reply! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that presuppositional apologetics is the only way by any means. I'm still very much a fan of WLC; he's without a doubt the greatest defender of Christianity against atheism today.

I guess my main concern was somewhat overlooked/not clear. Are there any Catholic apologists that consistently debate atheists or members of other religions?

Clivekeith · #73 Jun 27, '11, 9:27 pm

I don't know if he still qualifies within "our time" but GK Chesterton would own any of the four horseman of the atheist-combined

for me, he is the best. Reading his books, you can't help but say wow on each page

**Joe 5859** · #74 Jun 28, '11, 8:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by elvisman

I consider people like Scott Hahn and Peter Kreeft to be theologians more than apologists.

Actually, I would say Kreeft is a philosopher, not a theologian. That is what he teaches, anyway.

I would tend to agree with classifying Hahn as a biblical theologian before I would classify him as an apologist. Though, like you said, there is no reason a person cannot be more than one thing. They certainly do not need to conform themselves to our little classification systems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnewton

I think there is no best. My opinion of those who are best in specific areas are:

Speaking and in person: Scott Hahn
Writing: Jimmy Akin
The one who I get the most from: Peter Kreeft

There are many more because God needs many more and each one is the best person in the place that God has put them.

Wow, I think we're kindred spirits, pnewton!

I can definitely get behind your assessment.

I do have to agree with others about Fr. Barron, though. I've seen him bring a crowd of Catholic "progressives" to their feet to give him a standing ovation merely by speaking the simple and profound truth of Christ Crucified in his charismatic way. I think his star is on the rise for sure. I think he has the capacity to reach a much wider audience than even people like Hahn who have gotten pigeon-holed by some as though he only speaks to a certain type of Catholic.

Trebor135 · #75 Jun 28, '11, 11:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe 5859

I do have to agree with others about Fr. Barron, though. I've seen him bring a crowd of Catholic "progressives" to their feet to give him a standing ovation merely by speaking the simple and profound truth of Christ Crucified in his charismatic way.

Where can we see that online?