Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Jun 14, '11, 8:23 am
PiousTemplar PiousTemplar is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Posts: 1,111
Religion: catholic
Default Bloody Mary

Sorry If I ask too much, but can a kind fellow Catholic explain this woman to me? From what I have read she was 'evil' but then again, thats from protestant and atheist sources. I came across this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCpTIn66Nd0

Is this a realistic portrayal of what happened under her rein?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Jun 14, '11, 8:58 am
PerfectTiming's Avatar
PerfectTiming PerfectTiming is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2010
Posts: 4,767
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

I think you always have to consider what came after the person. After the reign of Mary I came a long line of Protestant monarchs determined to see the death of Catholicism in Britain. Is it such a stretch to think that later monarchs and historians would have demonised her for trying to bring England back to the Church? Not to say that her methods were justified, but her father and successive monarchs don't exactly have spotless records themselves. Yes, the methods were harsh and cruel but that is what was done at the time - you can call a great many monarchs 'evil' if that is your only criterion.

Her marriage should also be considered. To start with, it was very unpopular. This was a woman who was hopelessly in love with her husband but by most accounts he was very much disinterested in her and for him it was an alliance rather than a marriage. She was desperate for a child, to please her husband and ensure the Catholic succession of the realm. Accounts suggest she suffered a phantom pregnancy due to her longing for a child.

She may have shown cruelty, but she was also human. She had been mostly rejected by her father, kept away from her mother, suffered with love for a husband with little interest in her and has now been demonised by history. I can't help but feel a little sympathy for her.
__________________
If you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible warning.

My blog
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Jun 14, '11, 9:33 am
Rence Rence is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2009
Posts: 7,474
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiousTemplar View Post
Sorry If I ask too much, but can a kind fellow Catholic explain this woman to me? From what I have read she was 'evil' but then again, thats from protestant and atheist sources. I came across this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCpTIn66Nd0

Is this a realistic portrayal of what happened under her rein?
Well....she murdered people because they wanted to be Lutheran and disagreed with Church teachings. She had that mission not only because her mother was Catholic, but also because of what was done to her mother due to Anne Boleyn (a Protestant). So it was more than just a Catholic agenda. It was a personal one as well.

Can you imagine torturing and killing people just because they didn't share your faith? What kind of person does such a thing? Can you imagine the evil in that person's mind and heart to burn people at the stake? It's beyond me to think about that being acceptable and okay. I think she was very evil. But that was typical during that time period.

Protestants aren't the only ones who call her Bloody Mary. Catholics call her Bloody Mary too. She's infamous for what she did in the name of God. Her sister, on the other hand, ruled during the Golden Age...called so for many reasons.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Jun 14, '11, 9:42 am
Garyjohn2 Garyjohn2 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2009
Posts: 1,547
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

And here I thought we were going to talk about that most wonderful concoction that bears the same name.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Jun 14, '11, 9:46 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,727
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
Well....she murdered people because they wanted to be Lutheran and disagreed with Church teachings. She had that mission not only because her mother was Catholic, but also because of what was done to her mother due to Anne Boleyn (a Protestant). So it was more than just a Catholic agenda. It was a personal one as well.

Can you imagine torturing and killing people just because they didn't share your faith? What kind of person does such a thing? Can you imagine the evil in that person's mind and heart to burn people at the stake? It's beyond me to think about that being acceptable and okay. I think she was very evil. But that was typical during that time period.

Protestants aren't the only ones who call her Bloody Mary. Catholics call her Bloody Mary too. She's infamous for what she did in the name of God. Her sister, on the other hand, ruled during the Golden Age...called so for many reasons.

She WANTED to murder people? A-hem. I think you need to take a deep breath and to read history outside your 21st century bias.

As for Elizabeth, what of the hundreds of Catholics who were killed under HER regime, eh? If you judge Mary evil for the deaths that occured on her watch, you had darned well better judge Elizabeth evil as well.
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Jun 14, '11, 9:47 am
JharekCarnelian's Avatar
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Posts: 22,708
Religion: Latin rite Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

She was not exactly averse to killing of numerous fellow Catholics on occassion, although she justified that more via policies of colonialism. Ironically some of those burnt by her also had burnt others and John Rogers who was burnt by her order is infamous for stating that burning was entirely altogether too mild a punishment for a crime as grave as heresy.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Jun 14, '11, 9:56 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,727
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

While everybody is usually full of pity for 'poor Elizabeth' being imprisoned on her sister's watch, people seem to forget that Mary's life wasn't exactly beer and skittles.

She was forced to see the father she adored turn his back on her mother. Not only that, Henry PHYSICALLY SEPARATED Mary and her mother, Catherine, for no reason except to 'punish' Catherine for refusing a state divorce. Furthermore after Catherine's death, Henry sent his officials to force Mary to sign a 'submission' that acknowledged him (Henry) as the Head of the Church --under pain of DEATH. And Mary, herself then only a teen, signed. . .acknowledging her mother's marriage as INVALID and herself as a BASTARD.

Even though after Anne Boleyn died one might have thought Henry would show a little more of a paternal role, he was still very cold to Mary.

Mary acknowledged her brother Edward as King even though Edward's Protestant leanings saddened her.

Mary was the legitimate heir to the throne when Edward died, yet another woman (Jane Grey) was produced by her nobles to try to keep England Protestant.

It was THE ENTIRE COUNTRY (outside London and the nobles) who rose up AND DEMANDED, BY FORCE OF ARMS, THAT MARY BE QUEEN.

And even here, Mary tried to do her duty. She married and tried to produce a son and heir. And since Philip of Spain was considered KING OF ENGLAND, well guess what, it isn't just MARY who has to bear the 'brunt' of decisions that she made on the advice of her HUSBAND or those who falsely told her that this would HELP her husband.
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Jun 14, '11, 10:48 am
PerfectTiming's Avatar
PerfectTiming PerfectTiming is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2010
Posts: 4,767
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
Well....she murdered people because they wanted to be Lutheran and disagreed with Church teachings. She had that mission not only because her mother was Catholic, but also because of what was done to her mother due to Anne Boleyn (a Protestant). So it was more than just a Catholic agenda. It was a personal one as well.

Can you imagine torturing and killing people just because they didn't share your faith? What kind of person does such a thing? Can you imagine the evil in that person's mind and heart to burn people at the stake? It's beyond me to think about that being acceptable and okay. I think she was very evil. But that was typical during that time period.
As I already said, by that logic most monarchs have been 'evil'. Catholics have since that time been heavily persecuted in Britain and people were killed for refusing to leave the Church. What Mary I did was not that extra-ordinary.
__________________
If you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible warning.

My blog
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Jun 14, '11, 10:52 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,727
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectTiming View Post
As I already said, by that logic most monarchs have been 'evil'. Catholics have since that time been heavily persecuted in Britain and people were killed for refusing to leave the Church. What Mary I did was not that extra-ordinary.
It isn't even logic. It's sheer, flat, 'hearsay' and speculation to say that Mary 'wanted to kill people' just because 'they wanted to be Lutheran' and also saying it was some kind of personal vendetta.

But because Mary died after a mere 5 year reign, and Elizabeth went on to a 45 year one during which events outside her personal 'influence' caused her realm to gain political clout, some people ignore that Elizabeth was perfectly fine over killing people who wanted to be CATHOLIC. Sheesh. Tunnel vision. . .
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Jun 14, '11, 11:05 am
Rence Rence is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2009
Posts: 7,474
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectTiming View Post
As I already said, by that logic most monarchs have been 'evil'.
During that time, many of them were evil and responsible for many needless and unwarranted deaths. I certainly didn't mean to say that Bloody Mary was the only one. They had to be sick in the head for inflicting those tortures and causing those deaths, and not just Bloody Mary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectTiming View Post
Catholics have since that time been heavily persecuted in Britain and people were killed for refusing to leave the Church. What Mary I did was not that extra-ordinary.
Well...I'm sorry but I can't blame them for persecuting Catholics after the reign of Bloody Mary. Any culture/religion/people who torture and kill those who don't agree with them are an embarassment to their own kind. Still, Elizbeth fought for her subjects to have the freedom to choose their religion, whether it was Lutheran or Catholic. Sure she wasn't perfect, no monarchs are. But again, they didn't call her reign the "Golden Age" for nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Jun 14, '11, 11:57 am
PerfectTiming's Avatar
PerfectTiming PerfectTiming is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2010
Posts: 4,767
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
Well...I'm sorry but I can't blame them for persecuting Catholics after the reign of Bloody Mary. Any culture/religion/people who torture and kill those who don't agree with them are an embarassment to their own kind. Still, Elizbeth fought for her subjects to have the freedom to choose their religion, whether it was Lutheran or Catholic. Sure she wasn't perfect, no monarchs are. But again, they didn't call her reign the "Golden Age" for nothing.
The persecution of Catholics actually began long before the reign of Mary I. It was started by Henry VIII and continued by later monarchs.
__________________
If you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible warning.

My blog
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Jun 14, '11, 1:54 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,727
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
During that time, many of them were evil and responsible for many needless and unwarranted deaths. I certainly didn't mean to say that Bloody Mary was the only one. They had to be sick in the head for inflicting those tortures and causing those deaths, and not just Bloody Mary.



Well...I'm sorry but I can't blame them for persecuting Catholics after the reign of Bloody Mary. Any culture/religion/people who torture and kill those who don't agree with them are an embarassment to their own kind. Still, Elizbeth fought for her subjects to have the freedom to choose their religion, whether it was Lutheran or Catholic. Sure she wasn't perfect, no monarchs are. But again, they didn't call her reign the "Golden Age" for nothing.
Elizabeth 'fought for her subjects to have the freedom to choose their religion?

What? WHERE did you read this? Are you not aware that under Elizabeth, Catholics LOST the rights that they had HELD? That these legal rights were not fully restored until 1829??? Elizabeth's reign may have been Golden and I don't find her an evil person and in many ways she was an admirable statesperson and ruler. . .but she sure as HELL did not 'fight for her subjects to have freedom to choose their religion.'
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Jun 14, '11, 1:58 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,727
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

I'll give y'all the Catholic Encyclopedia (New Advent) Article on Mary Tudor:


Queen of England from 1553 to 1558; born 18 February, 1516; died 17 November, 1558. Mary was the daughter and only surviving child of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. Cardinal Wolsey was her godfather, and amongst her most intimate friends in early life were Cardinal Pole and his mother, the Countess of Salisbury, put to death in 1539 and now beatified. We know from the report of contemporaries that Mary in her youth did not lack charm. She was by nature modest, affectionate, and kindly. Like all Tudor princesses she had been well educated, speaking Latin, French, and Spanish with facility, and she was in particular an accomplished musician. Down to the time of the divorce negotiations, Mary was recognized as heir to the throne, and many schemes had been proposed to supply her with a suitable husband. She was indeed affianced for some time to the Emperor Charles V, the father of the man she was afterwards to marry. When, however, Henry VIII became inflexibly determined to put away his first wife, Mary, who was deeply attached to her mother, also fell into disfavour, and shortly afterwards, in 1531, to their great mutual grief, the mother and daughter were forcibly separated. During Anne Boleyn's lifetime as queen, the harshest treatment was shown to "the Lady Mary, the King's natural daughter", and wide-spread rumours affirmed that it was intended to bring both the princess and her mother to the gallows. However, after Queen Catherine's death in January, 1536, and Anne Boleyn's execution, which followed in a few months, the new queen, Jane Seymour, seems to have shown willingness to befriend the king's eldest daughter. Meanwhile very strong pressure was brought to bear by the all-powerful Cromwell, and Mary was at last induced to sign a formal "submission", in which she begged pardon of the king whom she had "obstinately and disobediently offended", renounced "the Bishop of Rome's pretended authority", and acknowledged the marriage between her father and mother to have been contrary to the law of God. It should be noted, however, that Mary signed this paper without reading it, and by the advice of Chapuys, the imperial ambassador, made a private protestation that she had signed it under compulsion. The degree of favour to which Mary was restored was at first but small, and even this was jeopardized by the sympathy shown for her in the Pilgrimage of Grace, but after the king's marriage to his sixth wife, Catherine Parr, Mary's position improved, and she was named in Henry's will, next to the little Edward, in the succession to the throne.
When Henry died it was inevitable that under the influences which surrounded the young king, Mary should retire into comparative obscurity. She chiefly resided at her manors of Hunsdon, Kenninghall, or Newhall, but during Somerset's protectorate she was not ill-treated. When the celebration of Mass was prohibited, she summoned up courage to take a strong line. She wrote to the Council and appealed to the emperor, and it seemed at one time as if Charles V would actually declare war. Throughout, Mary remained firm, and despite repeated monitions from the Council and a visit from Bishop Ridley, she to all intents and purposes set the government at defiance, so far, at least, as regarded the religious observances followed in her own household. At the same time her relations with her brother remained outwardly friendly, and she paid him visits of state from time to time.
At Edwards's death on 6 July, 1553, the news was for some days kept from Mary, Northumberland, the Lord President of the Council, having contrived that the young king should disinherit both his sisters in favour of Northumberland's own daughter-in-law, Lady Jane Grey. The Lord President, backed at first by the Council, made a resolute attempt to secure the succession for Lady Jane, but Mary acted promptly and courageously, setting up her standard at Framlingham, where the men of the eastern counties rallied round her and where she was soon joined by some members of the Council. By 19 July Mary had been proclaimed in London, and a few days later Northumberland was arrested.
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Jun 14, '11, 1:59 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,727
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Continued, part 2

Mary's success was highly popular, and the friends of the late administration, seeing that resistance was hopeless, hastened to make their peace with her. Her own inclinations were all in favour of clemency, and it was only in deference to the remonstrances of her advisers that she ultimately consented to the execution of the arch-traitor Northumberland with two of his followers. In his hour of distress Northumberland, apparently in all sincerity, professed himself a Catholic. Lady Jane Grey was spared, and even in matters of religion, Mary, perhaps by the advice of Charles V, showed no wish to proceed to extremities. The Catholic bishops of Henry's reign, like Bonner, Tunstall, and Gardiner, were restored to their sees, the intruded bishops were deprived, and some of them, like Ridley, Coverdale, and Hooper, were committed to custody. Cranmer, after he had challenged the Catholic party to meet him and Peter Martyr in disputation, was committed to the tower upon a by no means frivolous charge of having participated in the late futile rebellion. But no blood was shed for religion at this stage.
In September Mary was crowned with great pomp at Westminster by Gardiner, in spite of the excommunication which still lay upon the country, but this act was only due to the constitutional impasse which would have been created had this sanction to the royal authority been longer delayed. Mary had no wish to refuse obedience to papal authority. On the contrary, negotiations had already been opened with the Holy See which resulted in the nomination of Pole as legate to reconcile the kingdom. Parliament met on 5 October, 1553. It repealed the savage Treason Act of Northumberland's government, passed an act declaring the queen legitimate, another for the restitution of the Mass in Latin, though without penalties for non-conformity, and another for the celibacy of the clergy. Meanwhile Mary, owing perhaps partly to the fact that she fell much under the influence of the Spanish ambassador, Renard, had made up her mind to marry Philip of Spain. The suggestion was not very palatable to the nation as represented by the lower house of Parliament, but the queen persisted, and a treaty of marriage was drawn up in which English liberties were carefully safeguarded. All the Spanish influence was exercised to carry this scheme safely through, and at the emperor's instigation Pole was deliberately detained on his way to England under the apprehension that he might oppose the match. The unpopularity of the projected alliance encouraged Sir Thomas Wyatt to organize a rebellion, which at one time, 29 Jan., 1554, looked very formidable. Mary behaved with conspicuous courage, addressed the citizens of London at the Guildhall, and when they rallied round her the insurrection was easily crushed. The security of the state seemed now to require stern measures. The leaders of the revolt were executed and with them the unfortunate Lady Jane Grey. Whether Mary's sister Elizabeth was implicated in this movement has never been made clear, but mercy was shown to her as well as to many others.
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Jun 14, '11, 2:00 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,727
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Bloody Mary

Contined, part 3

Meanwhile the restoration of the old religion went on vigorously. The altars were set up again, the married clergy were deprived, High Mass was sung at St. Paul's, and new bishops were consecrated according to the ancient ritual. In Mary's second Parliament the title of supreme head was formally abrogated, and an attempt was made to re-enact the statutes against heresy, but was defeated by the resistance of the Lords. Somme of this resistance undoubtedly came from the apprehension which prevailed that the complete re-establishment of Catholicism could only be effected at the price of the restitution of the abbey lands to the Church. When, however, the marriage of Mary and Philip had taken place (25 July), and the Holy See had given assurances that the impropriators of Church property would not be molested, Pole towards the end of November was at last allowed to make his way to London. On 30 Nov., he pronounced the absolution of the kingdom over the king and queen and Parliament all kneeling before him. It was this same Parliament which in December, 1554, re-enacted the ancient statutes against heresy and repealed the enactments which had been made against Rome in the last two reigns.
All this seems to have excited much feeling among the more fanatical of the Reformers, men who for some years had railed against the pope and denounced Transubstantiation with impunity. Mary and her advisers were probably right in thinking that religious peace was impossible unless these fanatics were silenced, and they started once more to enforce those penalties for heresy which after all had never ceased to be familiar. Both under Henry VIII and Edward VI men had been burned for religion, and Protestant bishops like Cranmer, Latimer, and Ridley had had a principal hand in their burning. It seems to be generally admitted now that no vindictive thirst for blood prompted the deplorable severities which followed, but they have weighed heavily upon the memory of Mary, and it seems on the whole probable that in her conscientious but misguided zeal for the peace of the Church, she was herself principally responsible for them. In less than four years 277 persons were burned to death. Some, like Cranmer, Latimer, and Ridley, were men of influence and high position, but the majority belonged to the lower orders. Still these last were dangerous, because, as Dr. Gairdner has pointed out, heresy and sedition were at that time almost convertible terms. In regard to these executions, a much more lenient and at the same time more equitable judgment now prevails than was formerly the case. As one recent writer observes, Mary and her advisers "honestly believed themselves to be applying the only remedy left for the removal of a mortal disease from the body politic...What they did was on an unprecedented scale in England because heresy existed on an unprecedented scale" (Innes, "England under the Tudors", 232; and cf. Gairdner, "Lollardy", I,327). Something, perhaps, of Mary's severity, which was in contradiction to the clemency and generosity uniformly shown in the rest of her life, may be attributed to the bitterness which seems to have been concentrated into these last years. Long an invalid, she had had more than one serious illness during the reign of her brother. But the dropsy had now become chronic, and she was in truth a doomed woman.
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8448Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: jerrythetrucker
5139CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: hopeful01
4423Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3863SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3731Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3313Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
3279Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3222Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3107For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:06 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.