Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Philosophy
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Jun 17, '11, 9:11 pm
Peter167 Peter167 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2009
Posts: 58
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignatius View Post
Maybe it's because of the many thousands of your descendants who will be drawn to Christ.
Is one life created to suffer in hell for eternity worth thousands of descendants? May we do evil that good may come?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Jun 17, '11, 9:13 pm
Kyrby Caluna Kyrby Caluna is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2011
Posts: 34
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter167 View Post
Its not nonsense at all. God is omniscient, therefore he knows what the outcome of his action are before they come into existence.

This is a great mystery that many philosophers have asked, how could a loving God knowingly create something that will suffer for all eternity?
Then you are one of those nonsense "great" philosophers. As I said, if you truly love God whether you go to heaven or hell will never be an issue. You will love him without expecting any reward. That's what love is. And you will just go crazy to continue asking that stupid questions. Why? Because as you have said, its a great mystery. So don't ask. Just wait until God give you the answer someday. Again, don't be stupid. You will never be able to understand God until he reveals Himself to you by HIS OWN WILL.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Jun 17, '11, 11:10 pm
Qoeleth Qoeleth is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2010
Posts: 1,366
Religion: Catholic/Philosopher
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter167 View Post
Lets say that I reject God and choose to spend an eternity in hell. He knew I would make this choice, and yet he still made me.

If he loved me so much, why would he make me knowing that I would spend an eternity away from him?

Articles on omniscience, predestination, or this exact topic would be loverly.
I will propose (but do not support) three heretical answers to your question:

1) How are you sure anyone spends eternity in Hell. Origen, and many others, have argued that eventually everything (even the Devil) will be reconciled to God, since God will to save all creation, and His will is omnipotent. A modern philosopher, Camus, argues that in the pains of death, every person will atone for any sin they may have committed. Does the Bible say anyone will spend eternity in Hell. It says hell is "eternal fire" a few times, but does it actually say anyone spends eternity there?? The idea of universal salvation lead to Origen being declared a heretic.

2) How are you sure that the "Creator" of "this world" is in fact the loving God, the God of Jesus? If the Garden of Eden was ontologically different from our present existence, it follows that we came into our present existence as the product of sin. In this sense our life/existence in this world, is the creation of the Evil One. In support of this, you could quote John's Gospel, which calls the Devil the "Lord of this World", as well as Jesus instruction to "hate our lives in this world". This would not make much sense if God was the creator of "this" world. This is the heresy of the Cathars.

3) Sin, the possibility of damnation, came into the world contrary to God's will, as a consequent of the serpent. How do you know that God created the serpent? Why would a good God create a evil being? Perhaps the Devil (the evil deity- the Lord of this World) existed also eternally, so there is a genuine struggle between good and evil forces (hence Jesus' exorcisms in which he struggles with evil spirits)? This is the heresy of the Manichees.

A more orthodox answer is that hell, evil, sin, dmanation are NOT part of God's creation or plan, because, in fact, they are really non-existent things. All creation is good, as it is from God, but evil is in fact an absence or negation of creation/order. This is St. Augustine's answer.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Jun 17, '11, 11:36 pm
Spock Spock is offline
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 2,502
Religion: None
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter167 View Post
If he loved me so much, why would he make me knowing that I would spend an eternity away from him?
That is the cruical question. God's love is agape, not some emotion. Agape is acting in someone's best interest. To have "me" created, while knowing that my ultimate destination is eternal suffering and torment, is NOT in my best interest. This contradiction cannot be resolved.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Jun 17, '11, 11:52 pm
benedictus2 benedictus2 is offline
Banned
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: February 17, 2008
Posts: 7,555
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter167 View Post
Is one life created to suffer in hell for eternity worth thousands of descendants? May we do evil that good may come?
That does not exactly address Ignatius answer.

Firstly, God creating you was not an evil act. It was a supreme good.

The choice was entirely yours to go to hell.

In creating you for say your descendants. both acts and intent was good because His intent was for you to spend eternity with Him.

Allowing evil is not the same as doing evil.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old Jun 17, '11, 11:56 pm
benedictus2 benedictus2 is offline
Banned
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: February 17, 2008
Posts: 7,555
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post

That is the cruical question. God's love is agape, not some emotion. Agape is acting in someone's best interest. To have "me" created, while knowing that my ultimate destination is eternal suffering and torment, is NOT in my best interest. This contradiction cannot be resolved.
Agape is actually willing the good of the other. Creation is intrinsically good. Every grace is given to give a yes to God. That, is willing the good of the other. Christ dying is willing the good of the other.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old Jun 18, '11, 12:52 am
Robert Sock Robert Sock is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Posts: 8,171
Religion: Catholic - revert in 1993
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

According to Jews in some Jewish circles (Chabad), everyone in hell will eventually be saved. This is similar to the Jewish notion that the Fall will enable us to achieve an end-state of existence greater than Adam and Eve not having sinned.
__________________
God Bless!

Mark 12:30
‘And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old Jun 18, '11, 4:12 am
Spock Spock is offline
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 2,502
Religion: None
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by benedictus2 View Post
Agape is actually willing the good of the other.
Not true. If I simply "desire, want, wish, will" for you the best, but do not DO anything for you, it is an empty wish. Agape is defined as an ACT of will, an act which will be to benefit of the other. And it is not in my best interest to be created just so that I will be tortured forever.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old Jun 18, '11, 8:46 am
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Posts: 5,102
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via ICQ to Ignatius
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter167 View Post
Is one life created to suffer in hell for eternity worth thousands of descendants? May we do evil that good may come?
Your life wasn't created to suffer in hell, it was created to be joyfully with God forever. But He gives you free will and will not force you to. If you choose to reject Him, He will let you, but He will still bring some good out of it, perhaps for example by blessing your descendents. But that is only one example, there are many.
__________________
-
Wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
Dirige Domine Deus meus, viam meam in conspectu tuo.
http://catholictruth.webs.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-jBa...layer_embedded
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old Jun 18, '11, 9:15 am
Lookup Lookup is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Posts: 26
Religion: Soon to be Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

I think an important thing to remember is that God does not work in time like we do. To us a year ago is the past and tomorrow is the future. From what I've gathered, it's understood by many theologians that to God everything is present... Meaning to Him "now" is the crucifixion, 'now' it is also your third birthday, as well as this moment right now, and something happening 100 years in the future. Everything is the present to God.

Understanding that, helps one to understand that God doesn't just look at anyone's life when he creates them knowing that they are destined for hell and say "oh well" and plop them on the earth anyway. He is with each and every one of us at every moment of our lives waiting for us to conform our will to His. God cannot see into the future because to God there is no future, only now.

Hope this helps at least a little
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old Jun 18, '11, 9:40 am
vz71 vz71 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2004
Posts: 8,999
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter167 View Post
Lets say that I reject God and choose to spend an eternity in hell. He knew I would make this choice, and yet he still made me.

If he loved me so much, why would he make me knowing that I would spend an eternity away from him?
Why would God give you the choice knowing you would choose badly?

I have seen this question over and over, and I see people answer it routinely.

What I never see is the answer accepted. Or even argued.
It is as though the people that ask this question do not want an answer, just an argument to justify themselves.

The simple fact is that we are provided the choice to be with God or not.
Should we choose not, it is an act of love that God respects the choice.
Will we like the choice? Probably not. But could we love a God that does not respect our choice?
__________________
duly deposited.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old Jun 18, '11, 9:49 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,734
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter167 View Post
I didn't desire to be created. God created me, and he knew I would go to hell. Free will aside. I Understand free will. I get to choose, but the fact is, God knows the outcome. He knows the path that my free will takes me, so why create something if you know it will fail?
One possible answer is that there is something that is more important than the failure.

You seem to think that God is up there saying, "OK, here is Peter. I will create him to be born on June 2, 1945. He will sin on days x, x, x, and x, and repent on days y, y, and y. He will die on February 4, 2030 having committed 142,996,307 venial sins, 5015 mortal sins, of which 4978 are repented. Gee, that was one of my lesser efforts. Too bad for Peter."

It doesn't happen that way though.

You do realize that you're trying to limit God by saying that unless He created beings who were going to wind up in heaven, that He 'shouldn't have created the others at all'. . .But you don't know 'the whole story'. God does. There must be a very important reason for Him to create beings He loves knowing that some MAY end up in hell (not because God 'sent them there' but because they CHOSE to be there).

Nobody goes to hell, wailing and screaming that they're SORRY. They wail and scream all right, but their wails and screams are all, "I don't care! I hate God! I will never repent!" You can feel sorrow for beings who rejected God without feeling like it wasn't FAIR.
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old Jun 18, '11, 9:54 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,734
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
Not true. If I simply "desire, want, wish, will" for you the best, but do not DO anything for you, it is an empty wish. Agape is defined as an ACT of will, an act which will be to benefit of the other. And it is not in my best interest to be created just so that I will be tortured forever.
But Spock, you're assuming that the torture is something you don't choose.

If you are insistant that you want that torture more than you want heaven, then you'll receive it. Because you choose it so it is in YOUR best interest.

Because if you want it that much, you do not, and never will, want heaven . .AND your rejection would not only make you 'miserable' in heaven as you kept on screaming your hatred and disgust, it would also make those around you, instead of being free to embrace their heaven, have to suffer through you 'hating' it.

C.S. Lewis refers to this as the tyranny of evil, which doesn't want good itself and wishes to deprive everybody else of the good on the grounds that if IT is feeling bad, everybody else should feel bad and nobody should have the chance to feel good because IT is feeling bad. That is not fairness.
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old Jun 18, '11, 12:28 pm
Spock Spock is offline
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 2,502
Religion: None
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantum ergo View Post
But Spock, you're assuming that the torture is something you don't choose.
Of course I am "assuming" that. To be more precise I know that I do not want to be tortured. I do not "crave" pain or misery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantum ergo View Post
If you are insistant that you want that torture more than you want heaven, then you'll receive it. Because you choose it so it is in YOUR best interest.
Yes, if I would want torture, pain and misery, then it would be in my best interest to grant my wish. The trouble is that there is no such person. No one is given a sample of heaven and a sample of hell, and then asked: "which one would you prefer?".
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old Jun 18, '11, 1:07 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
Forum Master
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 12,734
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
Of course I am "assuming" that. To be more precise I know that I do not want to be tortured. I do not "crave" pain or misery.


Yes, if I would want torture, pain and misery, then it would be in my best interest to grant my wish. The trouble is that there is no such person. No one is given a sample of heaven and a sample of hell, and then asked: "which one would you prefer?".

Are you SURE? You see, heaven is being with God, and hell is being apart from Him.

Every day, Spock, you are given samples of a bit of heaven and a bit of hell and asked which you would prefer, and every day you choose one or the other.

You choose heaven when you choose to follow God, who is all good. You choose hell when you reject Him. Simple as that.

Heaven and hell aren't two completely unknown things.
__________________
HLS Club

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8480Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: suko
5153CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: Vim71
4429Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: daughterstm
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3864SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3763Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3332Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3288Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3225Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3116For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Weejee



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 2:33 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.