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  #1  
Old Jun 30, '04, 8:45 am
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

Christianity -- which was also known as Catholicism for the first thousand years A.D. -- was a natural outgrowth from Judaism. The Catholic Church was founded by the Jewish Messiah -- the Christ, the Anointed One -- upon Peter, the Rock. His Twelve Apostles, all leaders of the newborn Church, were faithful and observant Jews.

Even after the Crucifixion and Ascension of Our Lord and the birth of His Church, the Apostles continued to attend synagogue services. Then they and their followers -- first called Christians at Antioch (Acts 11:26) -- who were the Church, gathered together in members' houses to celebrate the "breaking of the bread" -- the Mass (Acts 2:42, 20:7, et al.). Acts documents how intertwined were Christianity and Judaism.

The Jews believed that souls were purified after death, in preparation for their union with God (example: "Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (RSV, See 2 Maccabees 12:38-45). They still do. They just don't call this process "purgatory." Jews prayed for their dead at the time of Jesus and still do today. The Apostles -- all devout Jews -- taught the concept of after-death purification to their new Greek-speaking converts, the first Christians.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world. Christ taught the Apostles and the Apostles taught the Church. The Church has been teaching the concept of the purification of souls after death (purgatory) for the past 2,000 years because she learned it from the Apostles.

Protestants, basing their faith on Sola Scriptura, not only do not find purgatory in the Scriptures (because they don't know how to recognize the Truth when they read it), but they are so far removed in time from the beginning of historical Christianity that they have cut themselves off from this knowledge.

The New Testament came out of the Church. The teachings of the Catholic Church are reflected in the NT, not the other way around. Just because there is not a flat statement in the NT that "souls are purified after death in a process called purgatory" does not mean it isn't there, or that Christ and His Apostles didn't believe it and teach it.

Latin: purgare (v.) To purify, to cleanse.

There's much more to be said about purgatory. Comments?

Ave Cor Mariae, Jay
  #2  
Old Jun 30, '04, 8:51 am
T.A.Stobie, SFO T.A.Stobie, SFO is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

I have heard Fr. Benedict Groeschel state that he has many protestant friends who not only believe in Purgatory but would choose to go there given the choice of Purgatory (to be better prepared for Heaven) or Heaven directly.
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  #3  
Old Jun 30, '04, 8:56 am
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

C.S. Lewis also believed in purgatory. But these are individual Protestants. There is no Protestant church I know of that teaches it. In fact, they deny it and denounce the Catholic Church for teaching it.

There is only so much space allowed for titles of threads.

Jay, SFO
  #4  
Old Jun 30, '04, 9:46 am
hlgomez hlgomez is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

One of the arguments they use for not believing was the thief who was present during the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus went on to say "Today, you will be with me in paradise."

Father Echert beautifully expalined that the crucifixion, which was a terrible form of torture that will lead to death was a form of "purgation" for the said thief. He may have escaped purgatory, but the fact is, he paid for his sins before entering heaven thru crucifixion. Now what about those who didn't paid yet for their sins when they die? The Catholic Church says--they will go to purgatory for cleansing before they can enter heaven. For nothing defiled can enter heaven.

Pio
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  #5  
Old Jun 30, '04, 9:49 am
hlgomez hlgomez is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

I may want to add: the thief went also to confess his sins before the Lord Jesus. He didn't deny he was a thief. This is the Sacrament of Reconciliation at work and the thief was reconciled to God at that moment.


Pio
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When Jesus said to them, "I AM," they turned away and fell to the ground. (John 18:6)
  #6  
Old Jun 30, '04, 10:01 am
JimG JimG is online now
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

I think it may also be due to a Protestant misinterpretation of Pauline theology. As you said, both Jews and Catholics going back thousands of years have believed in and prayed for the purification of those who have died.

Catholic theology believes the scripture that says we "must be perfected" even as our heavenly Father is perfect, and that nothing unclean can enter heaven. This means purification and sanctification. Much of Protestant theology sees us as not really being sanctified; rather the sacrifice of Jesus simply is like a "get out of jail free" card, or ticket to heaven which He has punched for us. So what's the point of purgatory if Jesus has already paid the price?

Catholics see sin as having damaged our soul, even though we are forgiven. Like a car that's been in a wreck, it's alignment is never quite right afterwards. We've been forgiven for the wreck, but we still need to get the dents out and the alignment fixed.

JimG
  #7  
Old Jun 30, '04, 10:15 am
Malachi4U Malachi4U is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

The principle of Purgatory is incompatible with the man made tradition of "saved by faith alone." Purgatory proves the other 100% wrong!







A prisoner of Christ
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2 Tim 4:6-7 "For I am even now ready to be sacrificed: and the time of my dissolution is at hand. I have fought a good fight: I have finished my course: I have kept the faith." Have you?
  #8  
Old Jun 30, '04, 10:23 am
bbas 64 bbas 64 is offline
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Smile Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

Quote:
WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?


Because they are told they must, therefore they do. We are not required to carry such a yoke, so most of us do not.

That was easy.

Bill
  #9  
Old Jun 30, '04, 10:33 am
skattas skattas is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

As for the thief already paying his purgatory through his crucifixion, a crucial point has been forgotten; he had to repent and ask God to 'remember him when he goes into his kingdom'. His purgatory was one of man-made punishment for man-made laws, but it was his repentance through the acceptance of Jesus as Savior, the acknowledgement that He is the Son of God, and His request for his forgiveness that saved him.
  #10  
Old Jun 30, '04, 10:46 am
Vitus Vitus is offline
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Default Jewish Afterlife

The purification period in the Jewish afterlife is typically no longer than 12 months (based on an OT verse that escapes me at the moment) depending on how unpure one is. Typically, the Jewish mourning prayer (Kiddish) is said for only 11 months out of respect for the dead (prayer for 12 months would mean they were pretty unpure). There is no eternal Hell in Judaism (except for the truly wicked, and even that is mere speculation).

Purgatory is similar to the Jewish "Hell". In comparing the two theologies of the afterlife, I think one would have a harder concept with eternal damnation than with purifying Purgatory.
  #11  
Old Jun 30, '04, 11:12 am
mango_2003 mango_2003 is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlgomez
One of the arguments they use for not believing was the thief who was present during the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus went on to say "Today, you will be with me in paradise."

Father Echert beautifully expalined that the crucifixion, which was a terrible form of torture that will lead to death was a form of "purgation" for the said thief. He may have escaped purgatory, but the fact is, he paid for his sins before entering heaven thru crucifixion.

Pio
He paid for his sins through crucifixion? Sorry...but no. If that were true we could all just get crucified before we die...not rely on Jesus at all. If there are other means of salvation than Jesus's blood, then He died for nothing.

~mango~
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  #12  
Old Jun 30, '04, 11:20 am
Pro Iesu Pro Iesu is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

Well the Catholic church also has the books of the Maccabees which clearly have refrences to purgatory (makes you wonder why Luther and Calvin took those books out eh)and also in Paul's epistles he talks about praying for his deceased friend why pray for someone in heaven they're already there, why pray for someone in hell they'll never get out since it was their choice to abandon God. Paul also talks of a purging of sins by fire, and since hell is permanent and nothing defiled by sin can enter heaven logic states that there is a Purgatory.
  #13  
Old Jun 30, '04, 11:22 am
space ghost space ghost is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

because catholics are taught about purgatory and protestants are taught there is no such place....
  #14  
Old Jun 30, '04, 11:23 am
ralphinal ralphinal is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mango_2003
He paid for his sins through crucifixion? Sorry...but no. If that were true we could all just get crucified before we die...not rely on Jesus at all. If there are other means of salvation than Jesus's blood, then He died for nothing.

~mango~
That is not exactly what was meant by the statement. The reality is that the theif suffered a purgation while on earth. The same can be said of people who offer their sufferings as Paul said to make up that which is lacking in Christ. In other words, the theif because of the intensity of his pain coupled with his faith had no need for further purgation. As far as purgatory being man-made or simply a doctrine forced upon us, nothing could be farther from the truth. It is in the Old Testament cannon as it was known by Jesus and his Apostles and it is hinted at in the New Testament as well.

IN the end, nothing that we say on here will matter because peopel do not want to beleive in it. When they are stuck in Purgatory that in itself will be purgation enough.
  #15  
Old Jun 30, '04, 11:48 am
Contarini Contarini is offline
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Default Re: WHY DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE IN PURGATORY AND PROTESTANTS DO NOT?

:Much of Protestant theology sees us as not really being sanctified; rather the sacrifice of Jesus simply is like a "get out of jail free" card, or ticket to heaven which He has punched for us.:

That is an abuse of Protestant theology--it is not the formal teaching of any major tradition of Protestantism, though many (especially Baptists) come close. Protestants do believe in the necessity of sanctification and always have. Classical Protestants do not believe that our acceptance before God depends on the progress of our sanctification, but they believe in sanctification anyway. The only question is whether the completion of sanctification that occurs at the moment of death can be seen in terms compatible with a doctrine of purgatory. Most Protestants believe that it can't, but I agree with Jerry Walls that they are wrong, even in terms of their own soteriology. Part of the problem, I think, is that the Catholic Church traditionally spoke of purgatory in terms of merit and the payment of a debt of justice, and Protestants were (rightly, IMHO) resistant to this language. Your analogy contains nothing that I think Protestants have good grounds for objecting to.

Similarly, Malachi claimed: :The principle of Purgatory is incompatible with the man made tradition of "saved by faith alone.":

That is what many Protestants claim (though of course they don't call it a "man-made tradition"), but I don't see how that can be, since anyone who arrives in Purgatory has been saved already (in the sense that such a person's sins have been forgiven and they are sure of eternal life). So how can the Protestant doctrine of justification be relevant to the question of purgatory? I think Protestants have grounds for objecting to some of the ways Catholics have traditionally spoken of purgatory, but not to the doctrine itself. However, Protestants are not of course going to adopt purgatory as dogma, even if they come to see it as a legitimate pious opinion (that's how I see it, myself).

In Christ,

Edwin
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