Is murder worse than rape?

[formerlysure]

Thanks for the clarification - yeah, I can't imagine a murder victim would go to hell for no confessing their sins as their life is taken. Has the Church taken a position on this? I know the position was reversed on the status of infants who die prior to baptism, formerly said to go to purgatory - I would think this situation would be similar, would it not?

[thistle]

Originally Posted by formerlysure

Thanks for the clarification - yeah, I can't imagine a murder victim would go to hell for no confessing their sins as their life is taken. Has the Church taken a position on this? I know the position was reversed on the status of infants who die prior to baptism, formerly said to go to purgatory - I would think this situation would be similar, would it not?

First, anyone (murder victim or not) who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. That is a Church teaching.

Second, the Church has NOT reversed its position on unbaptised infants. Limbo for Infants has NEVER been a teaching of the Church. It was only ever a theological hypothesis.

[jsaldar]

They are both crimes against humanity punishable by an eternity in hell.

Only on earth can you get away with commiting murder such as we saw today.

[formerlysure]

Thistle, perhaps you or someone else can elaborate - few people have the opportunity to confess immediately prior to death, and most of us have minor failings pretty often - if I were to lie to my mother and not confess and then die, what happens to my soul?

And what of the children I lost to miscarriage - obviously they could not be baptised but per my own Church, they are human beings from the time of conception - can I assume these innocents would go straight to heaven?

And what of the murder victim who has been robbed of the chance to make things right with God? I'd like to understand this better if someone doesn't mind explaining further, please.

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by formerlysure

Thistle, perhaps you or someone else can elaborate - few people have the opportunity to confess immediately prior to death, and most of us have minor failings pretty often - if I were to lie to my mother and not confess and then die, what happens to my soul?

And what of the children I lost to miscarriage - obviously they could not be baptised but per my own Church, they are human beings from the time of conception - can I assume these innocents would go straight to heaven?

And what of the murder victim who has been robbed of the chance to make things right with God? I'd like to understand this better if someone doesn't mind explaining further, please.

I think it would be best to rely on common sense and your own intelligence than thistle or anyone else. I think we can assume the God has a heart and a brain.
The people who wrote these rules like you must confess your sins or face the possibility of hell were men not God. They might not have considered every possible situation.
These letter of the law people actually commit a great heresy. Augustine and Thomas and the others were men, not God. They may have been wrong about somethings.
I am sure that if there is a God, he would not make the innocent suffer because of some technicality.
Perhaps my words don't mean to much to you because I don't call my self Catholic. But I ask you to trust your own heart and not trust these doctornerial obsessed people. They can only make you suffer needlessly. And that would be a terrible thing.

[Mark David]

Originally Posted by thistle

First, anyone (murder victim or not) who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. That is a Church teaching.

Second, the Church has NOT reversed its position on unbaptised infants. Limbo for Infants has NEVER been a teaching of the Church. It was only ever a theological hypothesis.

I believe St. Augustine was the first to mention Limbo. And I'd wager that the Church leans more towards rejecting its existence than not. Think of abortion, miscarriage, etc - it's impossible to baptize an unborn child, but nothing is impossible for God.

As to whether murder is worse than rape: both are among the gravest sins, so it's an awkward question to answer. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd say murder was worse, because one could survive rape and become holier and wiser - while if one is murdered, they could find themselves in hell and thus have no more chances for redemption.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by Mark David

I believe St. Augustine was the first to mention Limbo. And I'd wager that the Church leans more towards rejecting its existence than not. Think of abortion, miscarriage, etc - it's impossible to baptize an unborn child, but nothing is impossible for God.

As to whether murder is worse than rape: both are among the gravest sins, so it's an awkward question to answer. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd say murder was worse, because one could survive rape and become holier and wiser - while if one is murdered, they could find themselves in hell and thus have no more chances for redemption.

Limbo for Infants has never been a Church teaching. The Church is neutral on this and allows Catholics to believe it or not. The Church does not know what happens to unbaptised infants. That's why the Church teaches such infants are left to God's mercy.
In the case of the unbaptised my personal belief is that God shows mercy to them and they are saved. However, that is not a Church teaching.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by formerlysure

Thistle, perhaps you or someone else can elaborate - few people have the opportunity to confess immediately prior to death, and most of us have minor failings pretty often - if I were to lie to my mother and not confess and then die, what happens to my soul?

And what of the children I lost to miscarriage - obviously they could not be baptised but per my own Church, they are human beings from the time of conception - can I assume these innocents would go straight to heaven?

And what of the murder victim who has been robbed of the chance to make things right with God? I'd like to understand this better if someone doesn't mind explaining further, please.

Venial sins do not have to be confessed and if you die with only venial sins on you rsoul you are saved.
However, it is a different story for mortal sins. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. This is the Church teaching and there are no exceptions.

How is a murder victim different from a car accident victim or a heart attack victim? Just because somebody is taken suddenly does not absolve them of any mortal sins. Everyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. They have not been robbed of a chance to make thing right. Commiting a mortal sin is rejecting God's love and if you die in that state you condemn yourself.

[centurionguard]

Murder Kills Life. Rape Kills the Soul.

Why not ask any Rape or Incest Victim how they feel?

Given the Aftermath and horrid painful stigma of my own Gang Rape and Torture at Gunpoint and having to deal with it for over three decades I have often contemplated looking back in hindsight that I would have strongly preferred death or being murdered rather than have gone through what I had to endure in my life. Such horrid painful memories never go away.

However; if I have learned any minimal wisdom from my beloved God.
Suffering and Carrying a Cross for Greater Love of Imitating Jesus Life who made Himself a Victim for all of us at the very moment of His Holy Birth to Crucifixion on the Cross and what Jesus taught us in between Cradle to Cross is the greatest exemplification of what our own sufferings in life should model and imitate.

Perhaps this says all for some:

My Life is but a Weaving

My life is but a weaving
between my Lord and me;
I cannot choose the colors,
He worketh steadily.
Oft times He weaveth sorrow,
And I, in foolish pride,
Forget He sees the upper,
And I the under side.


Not 'til the loom is silent
and the shuttles cease to fly,
Shall God unroll the canvas
and explain the reason why.
The dark threads are as needful
in the Weaver's skillful hand,
As the threads of gold and silver
in the pattern He has planned.
He knows, He loves, He cares,
nothing this truth can dim.
He gives His very best to those
who leave the choice with Him.
~Author Unknown

[SteveGC]

Originally Posted by mcteague

I think it would be best to rely on common sense and your own intelligence than thistle or anyone else. I think we can assume the God has a heart and a brain.
The people who wrote these rules like you must confess your sins or face the possibility of hell were men not God. They might not have considered every possible situation.
These letter of the law people actually commit a great heresy. Augustine and Thomas and the others were men, not God. They may have been wrong about somethings.
I am sure that if there is a God, he would not make the innocent suffer because of some technicality.
Perhaps my words don't mean to much to you because I don't call my self Catholic. But I ask you to trust your own heart and not trust these doctornerial obsessed people. They can only make you suffer needlessly. And that would be a terrible thing.

I don't think this person is asking thistle or anyone else here because they think they have, in and of themselves, all the right answers. I think the idea is that, because this is Catholic Answers, and because this person may, in some small way, recognize the authority that the Catholic Church has in all matters Christian, that asking specific Catholics on here who tend to be articulate and knowledgeable about Catholic teaching is a prudent method of grasping some of the more difficult theological concepts.

Just a thought.

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by SteveGC

I don't think this person is asking thistle or anyone else here because they think they have, in and of themselves, all the right answers. I think the idea is that, because this is Catholic Answers, and because this person may, in some small way, recognize the authority that the Catholic Church has in all matters Christian, that asking specific Catholics on here who tend to be articulate and knowledgeable about Catholic teaching is a prudent method of grasping some of the more difficult theological concepts.

Just a thought.

I had a strong emotional response to that poster. Because I ask myself; what are they really asking? I separate what I may personally believe and respond in accordance to their beliefs. This person clearly believes in God and that life begins at conception. She mourns her miscarried children. It would hurt her to think that they were in hell.
Hers was not some academic question. It was one that carried great meaning and pain for her.
My experience here tells me not to trust most of the responders not to hurt her. It is all very fine to know your Catholic teaching, but to needlessly cause someone to suffer shows knowledge without wisdom.
I can not stand by while these letter of the law types cause someone pain. If I have to say that the law is wrong, or the great catholic philosophers were wrong, or our understanding of God is wrong, I will. I know what is really important. I put easing the suffering of others above a slavish devotion to doctrine. I really don't understand how anyone could make another choice.

[SteveGC]

Originally Posted by mcteague

I had a strong emotional response to that poster. Because I ask myself; what are they really asking? I separate what I may personally believe and respond in accordance to their beliefs. This person clearly believes in God and that life begins at conception. She mourns her miscarried children. It would hurt her to think that they were in hell.
Hers was not some academic question. It was one that carried great meaning and pain for her.
My experience here tells me not to trust most of the responders not to hurt her. It is all very fine to know your Catholic teaching, but to needlessly cause someone to suffer shows knowledge without wisdom.
I can not stand by while these letter of the law types cause someone pain. If I have to say that the law is wrong, or the great catholic philosophers were wrong, or our understanding of God is wrong, I will. I know what is really important. I put easing the suffering of others above a slavish devotion to doctrine. I really don't understand how anyone could make another choice.

In one sense, your concern is admirable, as we are indeed to care for one another and ease one another's needless pain.

But we must be careful how we discern what is needless. Truth trumps comfort. Truth trumps tactfulness. Truth trumps nice.

This is not to say that we have to be brazen or gloom-and-doom when we respond to another's questions or concerns. We try to speak the truth in love, of course. But love without truth is just platitudes. Truth without love is still the truth.

Also realize that suffering is part of God's plan of redemption for all. No pain, no gain, so-to-speak. Watering down the truth because it stings, or worse yet, misleading one away from the truth because we think they'll be better off that way...is a critical error, as it does a disservice to the seeker.

But I do agree with you insofar as we should attempt to express all things with gentleness.

Peace.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by mcteague

I had a strong emotional response to that poster. Because I ask myself; what are they really asking? I separate what I may personally believe and respond in accordance to their beliefs. This person clearly believes in God and that life begins at conception. She mourns her miscarried children. It would hurt her to think that they were in hell. Hers was not some academic question. It was one that carried great meaning and pain for her.
My experience here tells me not to trust most of the responders not to hurt her. It is all very fine to know your Catholic teaching, but to needlessly cause someone to suffer shows knowledge without wisdom.
I can not stand by while these letter of the law types cause someone pain. If I have to say that the law is wrong, or the great catholic philosophers were wrong, or our understanding of God is wrong, I will. I know what is really important. I put easing the suffering of others above a slavish devotion to doctrine. I really don't understand how anyone could make another choice.

Nobody here said such children are in Hell.

The Church does NOT say that unbaptized children can never go to heaven. The Church DOES say that there is no way except baptism for US to communicate supernatural life to the child. But GOD can communicate that life to the child in other ways. The Catechism presents possibilities for this, namely the great mercy of God and Jesus' tenderness toward children.

[formerlysure]

For clarity, I do believe my children are in the care of God as total innocents, but I am seeking a better understanding of the Catholic theology on the questions I've asked, on these and a great many other questions, which is why I am asking my questions on this particular site.

Any and all sympathy for the loss of my unborn children is greatly appreciated. I left the church largely due to misunderstandings about Church teaching about several hurtful experiences in my life, and coming back to the Church, I am seeking to be better educated on these issues from a Catholic perspective. More often than not, I find I was wrong - the church is more than reasonable and caring about the hardships I have faced and knowing that has been very comforting to me.

[vera dicere]

Originally Posted by mcteague

Sorry, but I don't think you understood Fake name's post. He/she is saying that murder is worse because the victim might die without confessing their sins. Which FN believes might send them to hell.
Personally I think that is a rather sad vision of God. I mean you would really have to be a complete butthead to send murder victims to hell because they missed getting to confession. But this is what FN seems to believe and what they have written.

Yeah, I have a hard time with that scenario, but we know the rules, all of us do. What if the rape victim had just come out of an abortion clinic clapping her hands with joy and spitting in the face of teh Christian pro-lifers, what if she had been raised Catholic, having known full well that abortion is murder and a mortal sin?

Half the time our suffering is caused by the actions of others. Would it be less harsh to consider the post abortive happy woman being hit by a bus and going to hell instead of being murdered and going there? We are mortal. Our lives could end at any moment, an earthquake, a heart attack, allergic reaction, home invasion gone bad, 20 megaton nuclear device air burst.

Murder isn't a "get out of Hell free card".

As for rape vs. murder, I think as some have said it depends on the rape depends on the murder. A rape of a 2 year old vs. the shooting in the head of a bank teller ?

They are both grevious crimes against the dignity of the person and the sancitity of life. I really wouldn't want to say which is worse, but its always a case by case basis. I know a few people who were raped, one rape was of a woman who had a random one night stand with a guy who decided he wanted round two in the morning, she didn't, so he raped her, but I also know of a rape where the girl, 18 at the time, was pulled into a side street while walking home from school at 4 in teh afternoon, and raped by two men, who then proceeded to beat the living snot out of her. What rape is worse in that situation?

Variables can change the situation. Both crimes have victims, both crimes have far reaching consquences, both crimes are hideous. Any crime or action that results in eternal damnation is far worse, but that's talking spiritual, not physical.