TLM "Vigil" Mass?

TheMc · #1 Jul 3, '11, 4:28 pm

Hey Everyone,

I am fairly sure that an EF Mass celebrated after 4:00 fulfills your Sunday obligation, but at that Mass, may the Mass of Sunday be used, or must the prayers from Saturday be used?

TrueLight · #2 Jul 3, '11, 4:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMc

Hey Everyone,

I am fairly sure that an EF Mass celebrated after 4:00 fulfills your Sunday obligation, but at that Mass, may the Mass of Sunday be used, or must the prayers from Saturday be used?

I'm not too sure there are TLM Saturday vigil masses, aside from the Easter vigil, as some traditional Catholics are resistant to the idea of a vigil mass because they see it as modernism.

Take what I say with a grain of salt though.

TheMc · #3 Jul 3, '11, 4:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

I'm not too sure there are TLM Saturday Vigil masses, aside from the Easter vigil, as some traditional Catholics are resistant to the idea of a vigil mass because they see it as modernism.

I should have mentioned that. I was thinking mainly in a theoretical situation where the pastor says something like:

"Sure, you can have your latin Mass, but only after 7:00 on Saturdays, or at 6:00am on Sundays."

I'm not saying most traddies would like it, I'm just asking what is licit.

**ProVobis** · #4 Jul 3, '11, 4:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMc

Hey Everyone,

I am fairly sure that an EF Mass celebrated after 4:00 fulfills your Sunday obligation, but at that Mass, may the Mass of Sunday be used, or must the prayers from Saturday be used?

There is only one which I know of (in Munster Indiana) and I believe they are using the Sunday Mass. Allowance for Saturday Masses (post vesperem) to fulfull Sunday obligation wasn't implemented until 1970 so I'm not sure what the official allowance is for the 1962 Missal.

**thistle** · #5 Jul 3, '11, 6:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMc

Hey Everyone,

I am fairly sure that an EF Mass celebrated after 4:00 fulfills your Sunday obligation, but at that Mass, may the Mass of Sunday be used, or must the prayers from Saturday be used?

The readings are not relevant. Any Mass on Saturday evening fulfills the Sunday obligation.

Can. 1248 §1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a Catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.

TheMc · #6 Jul 3, '11, 6:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thistle

The readings are not relevant. Any Mass on Saturday evening fulfills the Sunday obligation.

Can. 1248 §1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a Catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.

I may not have been clear enough. I am aware that it does fill the obligation.

My question should have been:

Can the prayers and readings from Sunday may be used (since it is filling our sunday obligation), or must the Saturday ones must be used (since it was not allowed in 1962 to have "vigil masses")?

Chatter163 · #7 Jul 3, '11, 7:39 pm

You're not likely to find any documentation on that.

corsair · #8 Jul 3, '11, 8:33 pm

I believe that Universae Ecclesiae clarifies that what was done in 1962 shall be done today and nothing after that year shoild be added to the EF (TLM).
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

TrueLight · #9 Jul 3, '11, 8:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by corsair

I believe that Universae Ecclesiae clarifies that what was done in 1962 shall be done today and nothing after that year shoild be added to the EF (TLM).
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I think an interesting point is the difference between what happens during mass and Pre-Vatican II practices. Where does one stop and one begin?

So does Universae Ecclesiae also cover practices like no anticipatory Saturday masses, the three hour fasting rule etc, or does it just cover the rubrics of the mass?

How does one reconcile fulfilling the obligation and figuring out whether to use the Saturday or Sunday order of mass, when as far as I understand the anticipatory masses were post Vatican II?

corsair · #10 Jul 3, '11, 9:18 pm

Here it is, straight from Rome;
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...lesiae_en.html

TrueLight · #11 Jul 3, '11, 9:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by corsair

Here it is, straight from Rome;
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...lesiae_en.html

Quote:

27. With regard to the disciplinary norms connected to celebration, the ecclesiastical discipline contained in the Code of Canon Law of 1983 applies.

28. Furthermore, by virtue of its character of special law, within its own area, the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum derogates from those provisions of law, connected with the sacred Rites, promulgated from 1962 onwards and incompatible with the rubrics of the liturgical books in effect in 1962.

This?

Will S · #12 Jul 3, '11, 10:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

This?

EF Masses on Saturday evening use the Saturday propers, because that is the 1962 law.
However, these EF Saturday Evening Masses can still fulfill the Sunday obligation because that is not a matter of the rubrics of the Mass and so the new law prevails.

**ProVobis** · #13 Jul 4, '11, 5:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

This?

The rules in existence in 1962 were more restrictive than the rules in 1970. It would not be disobedient to the SP or UE if one adhered to a 3-hr fast or no priest said Mass on Saturday evenings. In other words, you could follow the rules of 1962 and not be in violation of the 1970 rules, with the possible exception of subdeacons and other such matters.

malphono · #14 Jul 4, '11, 8:31 am

FWIW, I know of a few cases where the Usus Antiquior is offered on Saturday evening, whether regularly or on a rotating basis. It is always the Mass of the Sunday.

Except in one or two extraordinary and specific circumstances (Holy Week comes to mind here), the timings for Mass are not governed by the Missal. Timings are otherwise dealt with in the CIC.

TrueLight · #15 Jul 4, '11, 8:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by malphono

FWIW, I know of a few cases where the Usus Antiquior is offered on Saturday evening, whether regularly or on a rotating basis. It is always the Mass of the Sunday.

Except in one or two extraordinary and specific circumstances (Holy Week comes to mind here), the timings for Mass are not governed by the Missal. Timings are otherwise dealt with in the CIC.

Is the Usus Antiquior the same as the Extraordinary form?