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  #1  
Old Jul 7, '11, 8:11 pm
Zhenia Zhenia is offline
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Default Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Hi, A Catholic friend from another forum suggested I post this here. I converted to the Catholic Faith in the 1970s and was searching for the Catholicism from before Vatican II (my mom's family had told me about it), and when I didn't find it, I drifted off to the Traditional Masses being held back then. Eventually I got tired of the back and forth between the Trad RCs and the modern RCs, so I figured the gates of hell had prevailed after all, and I left the church.

I was still looking for spirituality though, and didn't know where to go....I am in the process right now of considering becoming Eastern Orthodox. I have even been meeting with an EO priest. I was looking for a church that has apostolic succession, and that doesn't drastically change.

But while doing some online searching, I learned that in 2007, Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunications of Abp Marcel Lefebvre and the bishops he consecrated. I did not know this! I also learned that this new Pope is very favorably disposed toward the traditional Mass.

Does anyone who is a Traditional Catholic know where things stand otherwise? I remember and experienced the horror days of the 1970s when we had to skulk around in motel rooms to hear Mass. I want to know if the modern church is coming around, or not. Please, someone who has stayed involved all these years, please let me know soon. I need to know if there is any hope that Rome may go entirely back to Tradition.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old Jul 7, '11, 8:37 pm
Suscipiat2011 Suscipiat2011 is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

I think the thing that you have to remember, is that, although the Novus Ordo, "Ordinary Form" was a drastic change in liturgical tradition, there was no change in dogma and morality, thus, the Gates of Hell did not prevail against it.

AND Christ said that the Gates of Hell could never prevail against the Church, thus, it could not have happened at all, or else Christ was a liar, and he was not such a thing.

Now as to where the Church stands on the Traditional Latin Mass, hereafter called the Extraordinary Form. Pope Benedict in his Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum, said that the
Quote:
extraordinary expression of that same 'Lex orandi,' and must be given due honour for its venerable and ancient usage. These two expressions of the Church's Lex orandi will in no any way lead to a division in the Church's 'Lex credendi' (Law of belief). They are, in fact two usages of the one Roman rite.
The Extraordinary Form is a true expression of the missal. Within that document it states that any priest may offer the Mass in the Extraordinary Form, and that if any group of laity desire the Extraordinary Form the local ordinary should try to fulfill that desire as best as he can.

Within the last few months, Benedict also put out an instruction entitled: Universae Ecclesiae. You should read those documents. Here are links to them.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc...pontificum.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=113273

If you want the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, then go and be a faithful Catholic.

Now you must also understand that there is ONE True Church and that Church is the Catholic Church. You can not be a member of the church, and only accept the Pre-Vatican Church. It is the same church that it was before. You must humbly submit to the Magisterium.

Believe me, I am about as extreme Traditionalist as they come, but we must always understand and obey the Magisterium. We must follow the church.

The Orthodox Church is not a good substitute for the Church. It is not the True Church, which Christ Started. If you are going to call yourself Traditional, you must understand the importance of the One True Church.

God Bless you
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  #3  
Old Jul 7, '11, 8:42 pm
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TrueLight TrueLight is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suscipiat2011 View Post
I think the thing that you have to remember, is that, although the Novus Ordo, "Ordinary Form" was a drastic change in liturgical tradition, there was no change in dogma and morality, thus, the Gates of Hell did not prevail against it.

AND Christ said that the Gates of Hell could never prevail against the Church, thus, it could not have happened at all, or else Christ was a liar, and he was not such a thing.

Now as to where the Church stands on the Traditional Latin Mass, hereafter called the Extraordinary Form. Pope Benedict in his Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum, said that the
The Extraordinary Form is a true expression of the missal. Within that document it states that any priest may offer the Mass in the Extraordinary Form, and that if any group of laity desire the Extraordinary Form the local ordinary should try to fulfill that desire as best as he can.

Within the last few months, Benedict also put out an instruction entitled: Universae Ecclesiae. You should read those documents. Here are links to them.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc...pontificum.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=113273

If you want the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, then go and be a faithful Catholic.

Now you must also understand that there is ONE True Church and that Church is the Catholic Church. You can not be a member of the church, and only accept the Pre-Vatican Church. It is the same church that it was before. You must humbly submit to the Magisterium.

Believe me, I am about as extreme Traditionalist as they come, but we must always understand and obey the Magisterium. We must follow the church.

The Orthodox Church is not a good substitute for the Church. It is not the True Church, which Christ Started. If you are going to call yourself Traditional, you must understand the importance of the One True Church.

God Bless you
Well said!

And if you are in fact interested in Eastern Christianity, then you have the Eastern Catholic Churches as options.
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  #4  
Old Jul 7, '11, 8:50 pm
Zhenia Zhenia is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it.

I was actually involved with the Eastern Catholic church, on my way out of the RCC; I had started attending their Divine Liturgy after the Traditional Latin Mass was no longer available in my area (this was a long time ago!) The reason why I got involved with them was because I remembered the Traditional Latin Rite priest had told us that if the TLM was not available, the Eastern Catholic Liturgy would be a good substitute, since their Liturgy still said "pro vobis et pro multis" ("for you and for many") in the words of institution.

But I actually grew to love the Eastern Rite in and of itself...but then we had to move, and there wasn't one anywhere near us by that time, so I just passively left the church altogether. Discovering the EO church reminded me of the Eastern Catholics, so it was actually easier for me to adapt to the EO Liturgy and customs since they're the same as the EC.

Anyway, thanks for the info, I'm still searching, discovering many options.
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  #5  
Old Jul 7, '11, 9:20 pm
YoungCanRCMale YoungCanRCMale is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Hello Zhenia,

Glad to see that you are curious as to the status of the TLM with respect to the Church. Much of the official document legwork has been covered by Suscipiat2011. I can add further information in addition to the major documents listed:

1. The Church never officialy aborgated the TLM. Our beloved B16 made this clear in Summorum Pontificum and if you care to read the other church documents of Vatican II on the Vatican's website under resources (www.vatican.va/) they never once ordered the TLM to be thrown away. In fact if you search around the non-extreme but traditional Catholic sites on the internet, you'll find that the Novus Ordo mass we have today was meant to be more reverential and still contain Latin (I think EWTN Network N.O. masses are more like this).

2. If you are going to investigate looking for the Latin Mass on returning to the Church, you must be careful as to what religious orders hold the TLM. You should seek out organizations in full communion with Rome, the Holy Father, and the Magisterium of the Church. Suscipiat2011 has mentioned this important requirement, which also is bound to traditional Latin Mass socieities. These organisations not only say the Latin Mass but are in full communion with Rome and often have flourishing communities with solid families if attached to a neighbourhood or a school. The most well known is the Fraternal Society of St. Peter (FSSP) as this is a personal prelate organization that was created by Venerable John Paul II himself. Other societies are the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (ICKSP), The Institute of the Good Sheperd and the Canons of St. John Cantius (I think I am partially incorrect on the names of the last two so please CA community correct me nicely ) You might ask what societies aren't? Sedevacant societies, that is they say "the seat of Rome is Vacant" or some variation of there are no good popes since X. Also another not-100% communion society is the Society of St Pius X: http://www.catholicregister.org/inte...y-illegitimate . Their status is interesting, but I won't go into detail as this has been exhausted extensively here on CA. You can search for it and read the many of long threads on the subject

3. I will say, that personally, the TLM is starting to thrive. If you visit the site of another famous Catholic blog, Fr. John Zuhlzdorf (a.k.a. Fr. Z, or WDTPRS), you will see that TLMs are starting to pop up all over the USA as well as certain parts of Canada. This is largely due to Benedict's Summorum Pontificum (SP) and its instruction Universae Ecclesiae (UE), especially because bishops who aren't exactly "peachy keen" on having TLMs in their diocese, almost now cannot hinder individual priests from saying it whereas before SP and UE, only by indult and special permissions would bishops allow TLMs in their dioceses. Furthermore, there are societies of laypeole, both youth and mixed age, who are aiming to restore traditional practices and specifically TLMs. The most worldwide lay society is that of Una Voce. Their goal is to promote the Traditional Latin Mass and aid the Roman Catholic Church in establishing parishes to have TLMs or become devoted TLM parishes. I will give you a few liks to start you off:
http://www.fiuv.org/news.html --> International Site
http://unavoce.org/about/ --> American Site and you can see a list of known chapters.
http://unavocetoronto.blogspot.com/ --> Toronto, Ontario, Canada Site

There isn't an Una Voce Canada, however that one listed from Canada is the Una Voce chapter I am officially a member of and support! I go to their Latin Masses when they are within access of the Toronto Transit system (TTC) or I can get a ride with friends/altar servers I know. I can tell you personally that the society has people of all ages including young people come out to their TLMs and that they are some of the most happy faithful Catholic communities you will ever be a part of. I suggest that through one of the full canonically acceptable orders I mentioned in #2 or an Una Voce chapter/traditional Latin Mass society where you live is where you should be looking to begin your journey into the TLM environment. And if you do decide to come back to the Church via the Latin Rite Extraordinary Form, all you need to do is the sacrament of reconciliation (mortal sin to miss Mass save valid reasons for example, medical emergencies or illness) and an early "Welcome Back" to you. I do hope you consider this well. YCRCM.
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  #6  
Old Jul 7, '11, 9:25 pm
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TrueLight TrueLight is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungCanRCMale View Post
s. The most worldwide lay society is that of Una Voce. Their goal is to promote the Traditional Latin Mass and aid the Roman Catholic Church in establishing parishes to have TLMs or become devoted TLM parishes. I will give you a few liks to start you off:
http://www.fiuv.org/news.html --> International Site
http://unavoce.org/about/ --> American Site and you can see a list of known chapters.
http://unavocetoronto.blogspot.com/ --> Toronto, Ontario, Canada Site

There isn't an Una Voce Canada, however that one listed from Canada is the Una Voce chapter I am officially a member of and support! I go to their Latin Masses when they are within access of the Toronto Transit system (TTC) or I can get a ride with friends/altar servers I know. I can tell you personally that the society has people of all ages including young people come out to their TLMs and that they are some of the most happy faithful Catholic communities you will ever be a part of. I suggest that through one of the full canonically acceptable orders I mentioned in #2 or an Una Voce chapter/traditional Latin Mass society where you live is where you should be looking to begin your journey into the TLM environment. And if you do decide to come back to the Church via the Latin Rite Extraordinary Form, all you need to do is the sacrament of reconciliation (mortal sin to miss Mass save valid reasons for example, medical emergencies or illness) and an early "Welcome Back" to you. I do hope you consider this well. YCRCM.
Thank you, thank you for the Una Voce information. I haven't come across it in my journey.
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  #7  
Old Jul 7, '11, 9:32 pm
Zhenia Zhenia is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Many years ago when I first became a Catholic, I heard TLMs which were held under the auspices of an organization (now defunct) called the ORCM (Orthodox Roman Catholic Movement). They were a sedevacantist group (or at least, there was a sedevacantist spirit amongst them). The group was led by Fr Francis Fenton, whom, I understand, passed on in the 1990s.

From what I have found through searching online, after his death, Fr McKenna (now Bishop, from the Thuc line) took over and moved the organization back to CT.

Anyway, after they left my area (and took the Mass with them), I tried attending the SSPX Masses available back then, but the Mass location was 3 hours away and I don't drive. So, I went to the Byzantine Catholics instead and stayed there until we had to move to another state, and there was no BCC near us, so I left the church for lack of anything else available at that time.
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  #8  
Old Jul 7, '11, 10:20 pm
Suscipiat2011 Suscipiat2011 is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhenia View Post
Many years ago when I first became a Catholic, I heard TLMs which were held under the auspices of an organization (now defunct) called the ORCM (Orthodox Roman Catholic Movement). They were a sedevacantist group (or at least, there was a sedevacantist spirit amongst them). The group was led by Fr Francis Fenton, whom, I understand, passed on in the 1990s.

From what I have found through searching online, after his death, Fr McKenna (now Bishop, from the Thuc line) took over and moved the organization back to CT.

Anyway, after they left my area (and took the Mass with them), I tried attending the SSPX Masses available back then, but the Mass location was 3 hours away and I don't drive. So, I went to the Byzantine Catholics instead and stayed there until we had to move to another state, and there was no BCC near us, so I left the church for lack of anything else available at that time.
The Eucharist is the Eucharist. If you can't attend TLM shouldn't you at least attend the NO so that you can at least receive the Eucharist? If you can't attend TLM shouldn't you at least attend the NO so that you can follow the laws of the church and receive regularly?

Sometimes we should submit and be obedient, so that we can follow the laws of the church. You must be first catholic, then traditional.
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  #9  
Old Jul 7, '11, 10:29 pm
Will S Will S is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Zhenia, please take a look at these pages:

http://fssp.com/press/locations/
http://www.institute-christ-king.org/home/

If any of these FSSP or ICRSS apostolates there are reasonably close to you, please make an appointment to talk to the priests there. These are priestly societies exclusively devoted to the traditional Mass and sacraments, and they will have some experience answering the kinds of questions you have.
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Old Jul 7, '11, 10:30 pm
archangel04 archangel04 is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhenia View Post
Many years ago when I first became a Catholic, I heard TLMs which were held under the auspices of an organization (now defunct) called the ORCM (Orthodox Roman Catholic Movement). They were a sedevacantist group (or at least, there was a sedevacantist spirit amongst them). The group was led by Fr Francis Fenton, whom, I understand, passed on in the 1990s.

From what I have found through searching online, after his death, Fr McKenna (now Bishop, from the Thuc line) took over and moved the organization back to CT.

Anyway, after they left my area (and took the Mass with them), I tried attending the SSPX Masses available back then, but the Mass location was 3 hours away and I don't drive. So, I went to the Byzantine Catholics instead and stayed there until we had to move to another state, and there was no BCC near us, so I left the church for lack of anything else available at that time.
Pray for the Lord to show you the way back to His Church. Last time I left the Church was for the same reason you did. I felt that the gates of hell had one. You be amazed what some members on here had done for me to think that way! But I started to read about St. Francis and he has a lot to teach and sometimes we "traditionaist" tend to forget. Has other memebers have stated, the Church is still the Church that was 2000 years ago. The TLM is making a comback in many areas, but the OF is still the ordinary and valid mass, we must trust in Christ and His Church. It took me a lot of pride swallowing to come back, but it's only through the grace of God that we can accept humility. There are many wolves in the Church, but our focuse should be on our salvation and being with God in eternity. Let those who are in charge of handling a situation handle it, if they don't then they will answer to God accordingly.
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  #11  
Old Jul 8, '11, 12:55 am
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prettiefly prettiefly is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Take a look at this link and see if there is a Traditional Latin Mass in your area:
http://www.ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm

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  #12  
Old Jul 8, '11, 5:30 am
Zhenia Zhenia is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

Thanks to everyone for the info about finding a TLM near me. I already did some online searching, and found there are actually three: One is a low Mass, and the other two are high Masses (one is diocesan, the other is SSPX).

What I find interesting is that my mother, who was raised Roman Catholic but left the Church many years ago (she returned on her deathbed when I called a priest for her to receive Extreme Unction), used to go to one of these parishes as a child (the diocesan high Mass location). IOW its her childhood church, in her old neighborhood!
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  #13  
Old Jul 8, '11, 12:16 pm
jasonjessica09 jasonjessica09 is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

The Eastern Orthodix church sacraments ARE VALID, dont let anybody here tell you otherwise. The Orthodox churches are Apostolic as well and also trace back to Jesus. The Roman Catholic Church is the same thing. Somebody in a previous response who said that the RCC alone traces its routes back to Jesus and the Apostles is not correct. I think the Orthodox churches are not as corrupt and modernist like many Catholics have become. Thank the Lord for the tradtionalist Catholics out there starting with Pope Benedict XVI and Cardinal Burke.

I am very fascinated with the Eastern Orthodox Churches myself. They are certainly more reverent of Jesus Christ than many Novus Ordo Masses today. I wish there was a Byzatine Catholic Church closer to where I love but there is not. Thankfully there is a Latin Mass nearby and I have fallen in love with this rite.

My experience is that the Novus Ordo has been a catalyst to people becoming bored with church and for priests to commit liturgical abuse. It just does not stand up to the securarism that is running all over the world today.There just is not much evangliziation going on with the Novus Ordo in place. The only saving grace about the Novus Ordo is the presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. He alone keeps me going to Novus Ordo Masses when I dont have the ability to go to a Latin Mass or a Eastern Catholic liturgy for whatever reason (travel, events, etc).

The bottom line is that we must go back to our roots to how the Early Church did things that allowed evangilization to occur. We need our Orthodoxy back. The Latin Mass is a sort of Western Orthodoxy that we need to embrace.
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Old Jul 8, '11, 12:21 pm
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MissRose73 MissRose73 is offline
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Default Re: Where does the modern church stand on the Traditional Mass right now?

I did tour a Greek Orthodox church when they had a tour as part of their yearly Greek festival. Some of the things are different, some are similar. It was a learning experience to say the least.

I do attend both forms of the Mass. Some people may think why does a young person like me want to go to EF Masses when the Novus Ordo (Ordinary Form) is available, I say its my own free will and I am learning more about the EF also. I think of the Novus Ordo as "Mass 101" and the EF Mass as the advanced version due to a lot more going on plus the Latin & less things we hear but see more.
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Old Jul 8, '11, 12:55 pm
archangel04 archangel04 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissRose73 View Post
I did tour a Greek Orthodox church when they had a tour as part of their yearly Greek festival. Some of the things are different, some are similar. It was a learning experience to say the least.

I do attend both forms of the Mass. Some people may think why does a young person like me want to go to EF Masses when the Novus Ordo (Ordinary Form) is available, I say its my own free will and I am learning more about the EF also. I think of the Novus Ordo as "Mass 101" and the EF Mass as the advanced version due to a lot more going on plus the Latin & less things we hear but see more.
I have gotten the same thing from other people as a young person myself. Some people have actually tried to make me feel bad saying I am not really allowed to attend the EF because it's only for older generations who were alive pre-vat II and could not accept new mass. It's amazing how easily someone can influence another person who does is not educated on what is going on in the Church. Christ leads the way, and I look to the Pope and give my obedience to the majisterium, not some lay person who belongs to some local parish council.
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