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  #1  
Old Jul 16, '11, 12:15 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

Of the three earliest Jewish sects--Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes--only the Essenes believed in predestination. My question is twofold. First, where did the idea of predestination originate (I don't think the Essenes were the first to speak of this)? And second, are/were there any other religions, apart from Judaism and Christianity (in particular, Calvinism), that believe(d) in predestination?
  #2  
Old Jul 16, '11, 1:30 pm
kylemccloughan kylemccloughan is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
Of the three earliest Jewish sects--Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes--only the Essenes believed in predestination. My question is twofold. First, where did the idea of predestination originate (I don't think the Essenes were the first to speak of this)? And second, are/were there any other religions, apart from Judaism and Christianity (in particular, Calvinism), that believe(d) in predestination?
My next-door neighbors are from a multi-generational family of three point Calvinists in the Christian Reformed church. i know they are really heavy into the Predestination belief. I do know however that Predestination is in Scripture. I am however not too familiar as to what extent.
  #3  
Old Jul 16, '11, 1:33 pm
Inishfree Inishfree is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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Originally Posted by kylemccloughan View Post
My next-door neighbors are from a multi-generational family of three point Calvinists in the Christian Reformed church. i know they are really heavy into the Predestination belief. I do know however that Predestination is in Scripture. I am however not too familiar as to what extent.

What is Predestination? Thank you in advance.
  #4  
Old Jul 16, '11, 1:43 pm
kylemccloughan kylemccloughan is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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What is Predestination? Thank you in advance.
From what I have heard from my neighbors, predestination is that you are predestined by God to go to Heaven or Hell and there is nothing you can do about it. If you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation no matter what and if you are not saved, you may not ever be able to be saved if it is not predestined.
  #5  
Old Jul 16, '11, 2:09 pm
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MSSheBear MSSheBear is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

My understanding of predestination as a former Calvinist is that God chooses people to accept salvation. God has to regenerate the person before they can have "saving faith." This accepting of salvation is a one-time event. If someone at a Calvinist church stops going to church or becomes, say, a Catholic, then they were never saved, obviously.

My observations of people at my former churches did not support this idea.
  #6  
Old Jul 16, '11, 2:20 pm
GEddie GEddie is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

The term predestination appears for the first time in Scripture in the Epistle to the Romans. Howeever, the idea is hinted at much earlier, i.e., when YHWH speaks of knowing a person before the womb (in Jeremiah). Clearly, foreknowledge and predestination go together, in fact, some would say they are the same, and foreknowledge by God of human beings is attested at least to Babylonian times.

BTW: The idea that some are predestined to salvation AND EVERYBODY ELSE to Hell is called double predestination, and is not stated in Scripture, although it is the doctrine of the Calvinists among others. One has to believe in some form of predestination to be Christian, seeing that it is in the NT, but not in double predestination.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA
  #7  
Old Jul 16, '11, 4:26 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
The term predestination appears for the first time in Scripture in the Epistle to the Romans. Howeever, the idea is hinted at much earlier, i.e., when YHWH speaks of knowing a person before the womb (in Jeremiah). Clearly, foreknowledge and predestination go together, in fact, some would say they are the same, and foreknowledge by God of human beings is attested at least to Babylonian times.

BTW: The idea that some are predestined to salvation AND EVERYBODY ELSE to Hell is called double predestination, and is not stated in Scripture, although it is the doctrine of the Calvinists among others. One has to believe in some form of predestination to be Christian, seeing that it is in the NT, but not in double predestination.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA
Thank you, GEddie, for this interesting information. I don't think I had ever heard about the idea of double predestination before.
  #8  
Old Jul 16, '11, 4:30 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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Originally Posted by MSSheBear View Post
My understanding of predestination as a former Calvinist is that God chooses people to accept salvation. God has to regenerate the person before they can have "saving faith." This accepting of salvation is a one-time event. If someone at a Calvinist church stops going to church or becomes, say, a Catholic, then they were never saved, obviously.

My observations of people at my former churches did not support this idea.
In other words, if a person converts to another religion or becomes an atheist, it means they were never saved in the first place. I recall long ago learning that if one is not "successful" in life, that also means one is not saved. This was a way to justify a kind of prosperity gospel, in which only the rich and elite can be saved. Thanks for your comment.
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Old Jul 16, '11, 4:32 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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Originally Posted by kylemccloughan View Post
From what I have heard from my neighbors, predestination is that you are predestined by God to go to Heaven or Hell and there is nothing you can do about it. If you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation no matter what and if you are not saved, you may not ever be able to be saved if it is not predestined.
That just about takes care of free will, doesn't it? Thanks for the comment.
  #10  
Old Jul 16, '11, 4:48 pm
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

Augustine wrestled with Predestination, Double Predestination and Free-Will also in one of his earlier works.

There's probly a ton of info here with the search engine in regards to Augustine.

Gary
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #11  
Old Jul 16, '11, 6:25 pm
kylemccloughan kylemccloughan is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
The term predestination appears for the first time in Scripture in the Epistle to the Romans. Howeever, the idea is hinted at much earlier, i.e., when YHWH speaks of knowing a person before the womb (in Jeremiah). Clearly, foreknowledge and predestination go together, in fact, some would say they are the same, and foreknowledge by God of human beings is attested at least to Babylonian times.

BTW: The idea that some are predestined to salvation AND EVERYBODY ELSE to Hell is called double predestination, and is not stated in Scripture, although it is the doctrine of the Calvinists among others. One has to believe in some form of predestination to be Christian, seeing that it is in the NT, but not in double predestination.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA
Good post and i agree with it.
  #12  
Old Jul 16, '11, 6:27 pm
kylemccloughan kylemccloughan is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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That just about takes care of free will, doesn't it? Thanks for the comment.
Your welcome and you're right, it does pretty much squash freewill.
  #13  
Old Jul 16, '11, 6:30 pm
kylemccloughan kylemccloughan is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

Just for the record, I do not support nor believe in much of Calvinistic views. I do support many of John Calvin's ideas, but not those of the three-point Calvinists who took it to an extreme well after Calvin's death.
  #14  
Old Jul 16, '11, 6:53 pm
GEddie GEddie is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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Originally Posted by kylemccloughan View Post
Just for the record, I do not support nor believe in much of Calvinistic views. I do support many of John Calvin's ideas, but not those of the three-point Calvinists who took it to an extreme well after Calvin's death.
Isn't it five points? Tulip and all that?
  #15  
Old Jul 16, '11, 6:57 pm
kylemccloughan kylemccloughan is offline
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Default Re: Which Religions Believe in Predestination and Where did the Idea Originate?

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Isn't it five points? Tulip and all that?
Yeah i think you are right. Show's you how much i keep up with Calvinists.
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