The Differences Between Lutheranism and Catholicism?

Shannon Moore · #1 Jul 18, '11, 12:14 pm

I have a friend who was wondering what the differences are. Since he and I are both Catholic, we don't really know what the differences are. Any help is most welcome!

**JonNC** · #2 Jul 18, '11, 12:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Moore

I have a friend who was wondering what the differences are. Since he and I are both Catholic, we don't really know what the differences are. Any help is most welcome!

I would suggest, as a starting place, a reading of the Augsburg Confession, the central confessional document of Lutheranism. In the link is the confession. At the end of each article, is a link to the Confutation (the Catholic response), followed by the Lutheran Apology, which responds to the Confutation.

http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

For this Lutheran, and it could be charged that I am in the minority, I see the biggest issue between our communions as ecclesiology, that meaing the issue of the power and primacy of the pope. Now, under that issue, comes others - how we view Marian doctrines, etc.

Many of the issues between us are being discussed, and there has been much progress over the last 50 years. We do still have a long way to go.

If you have questions, or as others respond, I will be happy to reflect further.

Jon

Newbie2 · #3 Jul 18, '11, 2:24 pm

Good advice (as usual, Jon).

I found there to be few roadblocks to converting from LCMS to Catholocism, and agree that the "biggie" is the magesterial authority of the Pope. If one can "get over" that

, the rest falls into line quite nicely.

**JonNC** · #4 Jul 18, '11, 2:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie2

Good advice (as usual, Jon).

I found there to be few roadblocks to converting from LCMS to Catholocism, and agree that the "biggie" is the magesterial authority of the Pope. If one can "get over" that

, the rest falls into line quite nicely.

Haven't seen you in a long time, my friend. Hope you are doing well.

To the OP, Newbie2 is precisely the kind of person whose brain you might want to pick.
He's done some "swimming" in both the Elbe and the Tiber.

Jon

Newbie2 · #5 Jul 18, '11, 3:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNC

Haven't seen you in a long time, my friend. Hope you are doing well.

To the OP, Newbie2 is precisely the kind of person whose brain you might want to pick.
He's done some "swimming" in both the Elbe and the Tiber.

Jon

Bathed in the Elbe and rinsed in the Tiber.

**JonNC** · #6 Jul 18, '11, 3:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie2

Bathed in the Elbe and rinsed in the Tiber.

lol. I've often said that if I ever swam the Tiber, I'd credit Martin Luther for the swimming lessons.

Jon

Swiss Guy · #7 Jul 18, '11, 4:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Moore

I have a friend who was wondering what the differences are. Since he and I are both Catholic, we don't really know what the differences are. Any help is most welcome!

Well, I don't have much time, so I'll keep it short. Justification really isn't that big a deal anymore, so we have that out of the way. The big issues are the authority of the church, pope and the bishops, the role of the saints, and purgatory. I'd say that the authority of the church is the biggest difference, because once there is no disagreement about that, you can agree with the rest. the Eucharistic theology and Justification theology are (very slightly, or even the same depending on if the Lutheran is LWF or a confessional branch) different. But Lutheranism and Catholicism are very similar.

God bless.

hn160 · #8 Jul 18, '11, 9:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swiss Guy

Well, I don't have much time, so I'll keep it short. Justification really isn't that big a deal anymore, so we have that out of the way. The big issues are the authority of the church, pope and the bishops, the role of the saints, and purgatory. I'd say that the authority of the church is the biggest difference, because once there is no disagreement about that, you can agree with the rest. the Eucharistic theology and Justification theology are (very slightly, or even the same depending on if the Lutheran is LWF or a confessional branch) different. But Lutheranism and Catholicism are very similar.

God bless.

If the Catholic Church would talk to the confessional Lutherans and come to agreement them on Justification that would be better than the one that they have with the LWF. Besides how could any agreement come in total with the LWF when they endorse women ordination, homosexual ordination and gay marriage? I believe that the LWF - Catholic talks are a waste of time.

Jim Dandy · #9 Jul 18, '11, 10:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hn160

If the Catholic Church would talk to the confessional Lutherans and come to agreement them on Justification that would be better than the one that they have with the LWF. Besides how could any agreement come in total with the LWF when they endorse women ordination, homosexual ordination and gay marriage? I believe that the LWF - Catholic talks are a waste of time.

As I understand the situation, the confessional Lutherans aren't interested in any dialog with the Catholic Church.

Aren't 66% of Lutherans in the LWF? So I read at their website.

**JonNC** · #10 Jul 19, '11, 6:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by hn160

If the Catholic Church would talk to the confessional Lutherans and come to agreement them on Justification that would be better than the one that they have with the LWF. Besides how could any agreement come in total with the LWF when they endorse women ordination, homosexual ordination and gay marriage? I believe that the LWF - Catholic talks are a waste of time.

Hi hn,
One of the issues I have with our synod is that we participate in national talks with the USCCB, but regularly seem reluctant to sign on to the ending documents, even with clarifiaction additions, such as Rome did with the JDDJ.

While I 100% agree with you regarding the ELCA's drift from the confessions and scripture regarding ordination, and that this applies to other member bodies of the LWF (but not all), I wouldn't say the talks they have had are a waste of time. In fact, there have been many fruitful results of them. The before mentioned JDDJ, the recently released "The Hope of Eternal Life" seems like an excellent document, "The Church as Koinonia" is an excellent document.

If I were looking at it from Jim Dandy's POV, I'd probably come to the same conclusion about confessional Lutherans - they're not interested. OTOH, dialogue between Rome and liberal Lutherans can only go so far for the reasons already mentioned. So, for substantive future progress to occur, it is folks like us - LCMS - who need to step up.
And it can be done. The ALCC is not an offspring of the ELCA. It is an outgrowth of the LCMS.

As the old saying goes, "Only Nixon could go to China".

Jon

Swiss Guy · #11 Jul 19, '11, 7:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

As I understand the situation, the confessional Lutherans aren't interested in any dialog with the Catholic Church.

Aren't 66% of Lutherans in the LWF? So I read at their website.

I thought it was something like 90% worldwide (although 66% seems about right for the U.S).

Jim Dandy · #12 Jul 20, '11, 8:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swiss Guy

I thought it was something like 90% worldwide (although 66% seems about right for the U.S).

This time I couldn't find the percentage of Lutherans represented in the LWF, but I did find this:

QUOTE
The Lutheran World Federation (LWF) is a global communion of Christian churches in the Lutheran tradition. Founded in 1947 in Lund, Sweden, the LWF now has 145 member churches in 79 countries all over the world representing over 70 million Christians.
END QUOTE

Swiss Guy · #13 Jul 20, '11, 11:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

This time I couldn't find the percentage of Lutherans represented in the LWF, but I did find this:

QUOTE
The Lutheran World Federation (LWF) is a global communion of Christian churches in the Lutheran tradition. Founded in 1947 in Lund, Sweden, the LWF now has 145 member churches in 79 countries all over the world representing over 70 million Christians.
END QUOTE

As of 2009, there seems to be about 72 million Lutherans worldwide, with about 68 million in the LWF - http://www.lutheranworld.org/News/LWI/EN/2326.EN.html. It's 2 years old, but it gives you the basic idea

hn160 · #14 Jul 20, '11, 3:17 pm

I have a question, suppose the LWF and the Roman Catholics were to come to agreement on all the major issues, would the Catholics accept Lutheran women pastors and non-celibate homosexual pastors?

Swiss Guy · #15 Jul 20, '11, 3:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hn160

I have a question, suppose the LWF and the Roman Catholics were to come to agreement on all the major issues, would the Catholics accept Lutheran women pastors and non-celibate homosexual pastors?

No, because of theological reasons that someone smarting than me can explain, and because the CC doesn't change theology - the LWF changes/loses theology depending upon who they are in an ecumenical dialogue with so that there can be an agreement (like the JDDJ, although the majority of Lutherans didn't change their theology since it was so vague).

So the LWF could pretty much say they believed in any theological thing because pretty much the only thing required to believe is the Trinity, and Jesus Christ's Incarnation and Resurrection.