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  #1  
Old Jul 19, '11, 5:58 pm
changecomes changecomes is offline
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Default Jews as the Chosen people?

I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews. Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

Thanks for your answers - these were just questions going about in my mind last night and I was unable to ascertain the answers myself.
  #2  
Old Jul 19, '11, 6:01 pm
Zhenia Zhenia is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by changecomes View Post
I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews. Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

Thanks for your answers - these were just questions going about in my mind last night and I was unable to ascertain the answers myself.
The Israelites were the chosen people of God under the Old Covenant. Now that Christ has come, ANYONE who accepts Him and joins His Church is part of "Israel", whether they are of Jewish or Gentile ancestry. In short, the Church is Israel now.

The Christians who believe that unconverted Jews are still "Israel" and still have a Covenant with God, are called Protestants dispensationalists, also known as Darbyism. Their theology has only existed since the 1800s; the most ancient Christians...the Church Fathers, etc did not believe what they do.
  #3  
Old Jul 19, '11, 7:17 pm
swariffin swariffin is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

We cannot deny the fact the Jewish was the people who reflect their historical as well as daily life to God, as we read the OT. They are perhaps also the first people who believe in Monotheism. The Good News of God first is given to them before to other people. But, unfortunately, since they refused it, the Good News of God is brought to the rest of the people in this world.
  #4  
Old Jul 19, '11, 7:56 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by changecomes View Post
I was hoping to enter the Catholic faith (although I have had a few disheartening moments to date ), but I am confused about several points.
I know that there are a number of Christian organisations in America in particular that revere Jews as the Chosen people even though these Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God whereas Jews from what I understand, do not believe he was the Messiah. How does that work?

Secondly is it part of the Catholic faith to believe that Jewish people are the Chosen people?

Thirdly, I still find it perplexing that Jesus was a Jew but, is for the most part worshipped by non Jews. Will there be a place in heaven for those who have renounced him?

Thanks for your answers - these were just questions going about in my mind last night and I was unable to ascertain the answers myself.
I might point out that the title of "The Chosen People," which is given to the Jews, does not mean that G-d loves the Jews better than any other people or that the Jews are smarter, stronger, more holy, or anything else. What it does mean is that G-d chose this people to receive His Torah Law, the eternal covenant, and by their moral example to spread His righteousness to other nations. For Jews, ancient Israel is the suffering servant spoken of in Isaiah, a people who was, is, and will be persecuted by other nations until the Messianic Age when G-d's Torah Law is made apparent to all. But until then, Jews have an obligation to keep G-d's commandments and instill morality in their own people as well as serving as a model for other peoples.
  #5  
Old Jul 19, '11, 8:27 pm
mightyaphrodite mightyaphrodite is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

I am glad to welcome you to our Catholic faith! To answer your question, YES (!), the Jews are God's "Chosen People", and because God does not lie, they always will be. This statement does not mean that God loves them more, or thinks less of us. But they were they first group of people that were specifically chosen to enter into covenant with the one true God. In their obedience and disobedience to God's word, He never failed to love them, in much the same way a parent always loves us even when we disappoint them.

The omnipotence of God allows Him to love each in a profound and personal way. Jesus was born the King of the Jews (which He is) and through His love of all mankind, is the King of all people. God, our Father, loves those who love and defend His "firstborn"people.

One of the most surprising facts is the increasing number of Hebrew Catholics. I often pray to one of our newest saints, Theresa Benedicta (AKA: Edith Stein). A brilliant scholar, she converted to Catholicism, became a nun and was executed at Auschwitz with her sister, Rose.

In conclusion, do not worry about other people's renunciation or acceptance of Christ the King. Everyone will have the opportunity to make the choice of accepting Christ - - let's pray in earnest that everyone will come to know Him.
  #6  
Old Jul 19, '11, 9:48 pm
John7 John7 is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Christians are chosen...

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a
peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


"the Church is the new people of God"
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
__________________
I can smell the foul stench of satan
  #7  
Old Jul 20, '11, 5:52 pm
Zhenia Zhenia is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
I might point out that the title of "The Chosen People," which is given to the Jews, does not mean that G-d loves the Jews better than any other people or that the Jews are smarter, stronger, more holy, or anything else. What it does mean is that G-d chose this people to receive His Torah Law, the eternal covenant, and by their moral example to spread His righteousness to other nations. For Jews, ancient Israel is the suffering servant spoken of in Isaiah, a people who was, is, and will be persecuted by other nations until the Messianic Age when G-d's Torah Law is made apparent to all. But until then, Jews have an obligation to keep G-d's commandments and instill morality in their own people as well as serving as a model for other peoples.
Most of this is true, however, the Jewish religion did not begin seeing the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as being Israel/the Jewish people until the time of Rashi, in 13th century France.

Prior to that, almost all rabbinic scholars recognized the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as referring to the coming Messiah, did you know that?

Modern Judaism (the Judaism in existence since the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple) is largely fabricated and reinvented, intended to be a response to the success of the early Christian movement. Ancient Judaism was very different, and much closer to Christian thought than most ppl realize.
  #8  
Old Jul 20, '11, 5:56 pm
Zhenia Zhenia is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyaphrodite View Post
I am glad to welcome you to our Catholic faith! To answer your question, YES (!), the Jews are God's "Chosen People", and because God does not lie, they always will be. This statement does not mean that God loves them more, or thinks less of us. But they were they first group of people that were specifically chosen to enter into covenant with the one true God. In their obedience and disobedience to God's word, He never failed to love them, in much the same way a parent always loves us even when we disappoint them.
This is not what the historic Church has taught. The Church Fathers clearly taught that while the Jewish people were the chosen people, that ended when they rejected Christ. Now, the Church is New Israel, and this New Israel is composed of ALL who accept Christ, whether they are of Jewish or nonJewish descent.

The only way anyone, Jew or Gentile, can become part of Israel now is to accept Christ.
  #9  
Old Jul 21, '11, 6:11 am
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhenia View Post
Most of this is true, however, the Jewish religion did not begin seeing the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as being Israel/the Jewish people until the time of Rashi, in 13th century France.

Prior to that, almost all rabbinic scholars recognized the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as referring to the coming Messiah, did you know that?

Modern Judaism (the Judaism in existence since the time of the destruction of the 2nd Temple) is largely fabricated and reinvented, intended to be a response to the success of the early Christian movement. Ancient Judaism was very different, and much closer to Christian thought than most ppl realize.
In what way is Modern Judaism fabricated or reinvented? The Pharisees accepted the Oral Law as well as the Written Law of the Torah, and the former was later codified in the Talmud. Is this what you are referring to? Apart from the inability to follow about half of the 613 Torah commandments due to the destruction of the Temple, the only "reinvention" I can think of are the customs and practices formulated by the Rabbis throughout the centuries, many of which are not binding. However, this is also true of Catholicism, which consists of Church Tradition as well as basic doctrines and dogma. Judaism's basic doctrines and core beliefs have not really changed throughout the centuries. Also, how was Ancient Judaism closer to Christian thought? Actually the reverse may be more correct: early Christian thought was closer to Ancient Judaism, but gradually grew further apart.
  #10  
Old Jul 21, '11, 10:13 am
byeveryword byeveryword is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhenia View Post
The Israelites were the chosen people of God under the Old Covenant. Now that Christ has come, ANYONE who accepts Him and joins His Church is part of "Israel", whether they are of Jewish or Gentile ancestry. In short, the Church is Israel now.

The Christians who believe that unconverted Jews are still "Israel" and still have a Covenant with God, are called Protestants dispensationalists, also known as Darbyism. Their theology has only existed since the 1800s; the most ancient Christians...the Church Fathers, etc did not believe what they do.
God never annulled His covenant with Israel. "His gifts and callings are without repentance"
(Rom. 11). The last question that the Jewish disciples asked Jesus Christ before he ascended into heaven was, "Lord will you at this time restore Israel?" Jesus responded by saying, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has laid down on his own authority” (Acts 1:6-7)
  #11  
Old Jul 21, '11, 10:57 am
John7 John7 is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by byeveryword View Post
God never annulled His covenant with Israel. "His gifts and callings are without repentance"
(Rom. 11). The last question that the Jewish disciples asked Jesus Christ before he ascended into heaven was, "Lord will you at this time restore Israel?" Jesus responded by saying, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has laid down on his own authority” (Acts 1:6-7)

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
"...the Jews: (except those that believe in Christ)
Who both killed the Lord Jesus,
and their own prophets,
and have persecuted us;
and they please not God,
and are contrary to all men:
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles
that they might be saved,
to fill up their sins alway:
for the wrath is come upon them
to the uttermost."

St. Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit



"the Church is the new people of God"
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
__________________
I can smell the foul stench of satan
  #12  
Old Jul 21, '11, 11:12 am
JharekCarnelian's Avatar
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John7 View Post
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
"...the Jews: (except those that believe in Christ)
Who both killed the Lord Jesus,
and their own prophets,
and have persecuted us;
and they please not God,
and are contrary to all men:
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles
that they might be saved,
to fill up their sins alway:
for the wrath is come upon them
to the uttermost."

St. Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit



"the Church is the new people of God"
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
oh dear...
  #13  
Old Jul 21, '11, 11:30 am
John7 John7 is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
oh dear...
Hi,

but has anything changed
since Paul wrote this?

for example, do Jews
(excluding those who believe in Christ)
now please God?

Luke 10:16 "...he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."
__________________
I can smell the foul stench of satan
  #14  
Old Jul 21, '11, 11:44 am
JharekCarnelian's Avatar
JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John7 View Post
Hi,

but has anything changed
since Paul wrote this?

for example, do Jews
(excluding those who believe in Christ)
now please God?

Luke 10:16 "...he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."
Yeah it's been about 2,000 years and the Jews who killed Jesus have been dead for some time.
  #15  
Old Jul 21, '11, 1:49 pm
Zhenia Zhenia is offline
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Default Re: Jews as the Chosen people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
In what way is Modern Judaism fabricated or reinvented? The Pharisees accepted the Oral Law as well as the Written Law of the Torah, and the former was later codified in the Talmud. Is this what you are referring to? Apart from the inability to follow about half of the 613 Torah commandments due to the destruction of the Temple, the only "reinvention" I can think of are the customs and practices formulated by the Rabbis throughout the centuries, many of which are not binding. However, this is also true of Catholicism, which consists of Church Tradition as well as basic doctrines and dogma. Judaism's basic doctrines and core beliefs have not really changed throughout the centuries. Also, how was Ancient Judaism closer to Christian thought? Actually the reverse may be more correct: early Christian thought was closer to Ancient Judaism, but gradually grew further apart.
For starters, check into the history of why the LXX (Septuagint) was suppressed by rabbinic Judaism after the time of Christ, and replaced with the Masoretic Text (even though the Talmud even says that the LXX was written under Divine inspiration 300 years before Christ, and was fully accepted and used by all Jews).

The early Christians used the LXX Messianic prophecies to win souls for Christ, and this disturbed the rabbis of the time, since many of those souls were Jewish. They decided to suppress the LXX and come out with a version of the Tanakh with re-translated passages, designed to sound less like Christ (Isaiah 7:14 being one of the most famous.)

For more info see "Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho the Jew": http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...guetrypho.html They also removed certain lines in some of the prophecies that made them sound too much like Jesus.

Ancient Judaism believed that blood of sacrificed animals atoned for sin, and nothing else. This is in the Torah. However, after Jesus was crucified (and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD/CE as He foretold), animal sacrifice could no longer be performed, so the rabbis decided to change what Judaism had previously believed...now, they claimed, sin could be atoned for by tzedakah (charity),mitzvot (good deeds) and tefillah (prayer).

Furthermore, as I stated earlier, the rabbis uniformly believed that Is 53 spoke of the coming Messiah, and it was not until Rashi in medieval France decided that is meant the people of Israel (the Jews) instead.

Ancient Judaism also believed in a triune Godhead, contrary to modern Jewish beliefs:

"Hear O Israel, YHVH Elohenu YHVH is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of Faith: in the vision of the Holy Spirit, int he beholding of the hidden eyes alone. The mystery of the audible voice is similar to this, for though it is one, yet it consists of three elements--fire, air and water, which have, however, become one in the mystery of the voice. Even so it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by YHVH Elohenu YHVH---three modes which form yet one unity." (Zohar, Vol 3, p 134, Soncino Press, c 1984, London)

(Note: the Kabbalah, of which the Zohar is the largest part, consists of oral beliefs handed down for many centuries until finally being committed to writing, not unlike the oral law (Talmud.)

Ancient Judaism also believed that a very holy tzaddik (righteous man) could suffer and die to atone not only for the sins of his generation, but also, if he is exceptionally righteous, for the sins of all mankind from the very first humans (see Derekh Hashem, The Way of God, by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, a/k/a The Ramchal, p 123, Feldheim edition).
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