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  #1  
Old Jul 24, '11, 10:06 pm
fakename fakename is offline
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Default When do you kill someone in self-defense?

Can you defend yourself if they are lunging towards you about to kill you?

Can you defend yourself (even to the point of dealing a deathblow) if the attacker is unintentionally going to kill you?
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  #2  
Old Jul 24, '11, 10:08 pm
Catholic90 Catholic90 is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

Yes. We are not doormats.
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  #3  
Old Jul 24, '11, 10:09 pm
passus passus is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

I'd say most definitely yes to the first one.

As for the second scenario, I take issue with the premise. What kind of situation in which an attacker was going to unintentionally kill you would warrant the use of a deathblow? Any defensive force along the lines of "deathblow" would seem to be appropriate only in a situation where the attacker definitely had intent to kill.
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  #4  
Old Jul 24, '11, 10:21 pm
fakename fakename is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by passus View Post
I'd say most definitely yes to the first one.

As for the second scenario, I take issue with the premise. What kind of situation in which an attacker was going to unintentionally kill you would warrant the use of a deathblow? Any defensive force along the lines of "deathblow" would seem to be appropriate only in a situation where the attacker definitely had intent to kill.
sorry I meant, what should we do if someone is going to accidentally, say, run you over with a car? Should you have a gun, would you be right to kill the driver?

Oh, I also have info. to share for anyone who doesn't know:

you can fatally attack someone for defense of chastity or for defense of important property.
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  #5  
Old Jul 24, '11, 10:27 pm
passus passus is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

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sorry I meant, what should we do if someone is going to accidentally, say, run you over with a car? Should you have a gun, would you be right to kill the driver?
This presumes that killing the driver would be an effective means of stopping the car, the actual imminent danger to your life. If you managed a perfect kill shot on the driver, the vehicle would likely be close enough to you that the momentum of the vehicle in question would still be enough to run you over and so you would be unjustified in killing the driver.
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  #6  
Old Jul 24, '11, 10:36 pm
fakename fakename is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

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Originally Posted by passus View Post
This presumes that killing the driver would be an effective means of stopping the car, the actual imminent danger to your life. If you managed a perfect kill shot on the driver, the vehicle would likely be close enough to you that the momentum of the vehicle in question would still be enough to run you over and so you would be unjustified in killing the driver.
It's a hypothetical situation designed to see if a general rule "self-defense is justified in the case where someone accidentally threatens you" is true. Don't pay attention to what might happen in the reality.
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  #7  
Old Jul 24, '11, 11:48 pm
Santi2 Santi2 is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

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Can you defend yourself (even to the point of dealing a deathblow) if the attacker is unintentionally going to kill you?
The common law principle over here poses that a person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of self-defence and one can argue that the attacker's conduct operates on what is referred to in common law as transfer of malice.
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  #8  
Old Jul 25, '11, 6:17 am
Catholic90 Catholic90 is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

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Don't pay attention to what might happen in the reality.


Yeah.....
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  #9  
Old Jul 25, '11, 8:05 am
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by passus View Post
I'd say most definitely yes to the first one.

As for the second scenario, I take issue with the premise. What kind of situation in which an attacker was going to unintentionally kill you would warrant the use of a deathblow? Any defensive force along the lines of "deathblow" would seem to be appropriate only in a situation where the attacker definitely had intent to kill.
I disagree. The lack of knowledge of a person about the threat they present has no bearing on the matter. What if a child was pointing a gun, you knew to be loaded, at you with their finger on the trigger? This might be hard to imagine because it involves a child, but we could consider the same case with a feeble minded adult or even someone under the influence of a drug.

But rather than worry about all that just consider do you have the right to prevent your death by a non-human actor or physical event? Of course. You can kill an animal that is about to kill you. If you were deadly allergic to a bee you can kill it if it is threatening you. You can saw down a tree that is about to crash down on your house and thus threatens your life. So the knowledge and even the intent of that which threatens your life is not really relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by passus View Post
This presumes that killing the driver would be an effective means of stopping the car, the actual imminent danger to your life. If you managed a perfect kill shot on the driver, the vehicle would likely be close enough to you that the momentum of the vehicle in question would still be enough to run you over and so you would be unjustified in killing the driver.
Police do this fairly often. Not the perfect kill shot since it often involves several rounds and several officers. But they do kill people who are driving at them in self defense.
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  #10  
Old Jul 25, '11, 8:14 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

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Originally Posted by fakename View Post
It's a hypothetical situation designed to see if a general rule "self-defense is justified in the case where someone accidentally threatens you" is true. Don't pay attention to what might happen in the reality.
How does someone "accidentally" threaten you?
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  #11  
Old Jul 25, '11, 8:59 am
fakename fakename is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

Can you exercise self-defense when you think (again hypothetical) that someone who has tried to kill you in the past and has a revengeful personality is probably going to try to kill you again?

I'm a little divided on this one.
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  #12  
Old Jul 25, '11, 9:08 am
Santi2 Santi2 is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

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Originally Posted by fakename View Post
Can you exercise self-defense when you think (again hypothetical) that someone who has tried to kill you in the past and has a revengeful personality is probably going to try to kill you again?

I'm a little divided on this one.
Probably is not "immediate threat", which is crucial to self-defence.
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  #13  
Old Jul 25, '11, 9:21 am
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Rascalking Rascalking is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

GREAT question.

As someone who has participated in martial arts for over 20 years now, I'm alway stunned by the actions of some people who almost try to look for reasons to beat someone up. They say, "Well, if someone breaks into your house, you have to the right to kill them! Or, If they steal my car!" NO! THat's an awful thing to say.

What I teach my students is this-You never, ever, ever try to kill a person, period. What you do is take the necessary steps to protect 1) the life of your family, 2) your life. You never kill someone in order to defend your property.

Now, I'm a pretty good show with a handgun, and I'm very skilled in certain martial arts. I am confident I could incapacitate someone without the need to kill them. Other people may not be as confident as I am.

To make it clear-if someone has a knife and is running towards a loved one, I would make the attempt to disarm them, not kill them. However, I would do what it takes to stop them from hurting my loved ones.

Only if it was a last resort (The man had opened fire with a gun in a crowded mall) would I feel it is moral to kill someone.

Hope this helps a bit.
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  #14  
Old Jul 25, '11, 9:27 am
sw85 sw85 is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fakename View Post
Can you defend yourself if they are lunging towards you about to kill you?

Can you defend yourself (even to the point of dealing a deathblow) if the attacker is unintentionally going to kill you?
It is morally licit to use whatever amount of force is necessary to protect your own life. If, in your judgment, this force must be lethal, then it is morally licit to use it. If you can protect your life using less force (for instance, if you can escape or incapacitate the attacker) then it would not be morally licit to take their life.

So I think, in both scenarios, it would be licit to take the other person's life if absolutely necessary to do so.
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  #15  
Old Jul 25, '11, 6:25 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: When do you kill someone in self-defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fakename View Post
Can you exercise self-defense when you think (again hypothetical) that someone who has tried to kill you in the past and has a revengeful personality is probably going to try to kill you again?

I'm a little divided on this one.
I repeat the question as you seem to be avoiding it.

How does someone "accidentally" threaten you??
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