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  #1  
Old Jul 26, '11, 6:59 am
mathematoons mathematoons is offline
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Default I'm in way over my head

I managed to bring a New Ager to Christ, but I've hit a snag. He has Gender Identity Disorder and asked me if people got married and had babies in Heaven. I quoted Matthew 22:30, and all of a sudden, he said he didn't want to go to Heaven, but would rather reincarnate as a female! He's having a huge crisis of faith as a result, and I don't know how to talk him out of it. On the plus side, he said if Jesus said it, it must be true. But it was the joy of Heaven that got him interested in the first place, so how do I talk him out of this crisis?

I need help ASAP.
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  #2  
Old Jul 26, '11, 7:38 am
ibo ibo is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathematoons View Post
I managed to bring a New Ager to Christ, but I've hit a snag. He has Gender Identity Disorder and asked me if people got married and had babies in Heaven. I quoted Matthew 22:30, and all of a sudden, he said he didn't want to go to Heaven, but would rather reincarnate as a female! He's having a huge crisis of faith as a result, and I don't know how to talk him out of it. On the plus side, he said if Jesus said it, it must be true. But it was the joy of Heaven that got him interested in the first place, so how do I talk him out of this crisis?

I need help ASAP.


My God, sorry for saying things. I guess you are American ! Americans like to have clear cut labels and that causes a problem. Read Derrida.

How did you put this label on him:Gender Identity Disorder? I would like to know what to be a female is and to know what the joys of giving birth to a child are (boy, I am joking!, it seems that it is a lot of pain!). Do I have Gender Identity Disorder ?

I think that your talk was just one talk and that does not lead to any conclusion.

Crisis of Faith are very good for they lead men to burn its bad points and grow the good ones. It is not you who are growing him out of the crisis but himself.

You may be a precious help just for being present.

Cheers and enjoy your friendship.
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  #3  
Old Jul 26, '11, 7:50 am
Ahimsa Ahimsa is offline
 
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

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Originally Posted by ibo View Post
Read Derrida.
That will just cause more problems.
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  #4  
Old Jul 26, '11, 7:59 am
jflare29 jflare29 is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

Good Morning, Mathematoons,
You've got a real dilly of a problem there!
I could suggest discerning whether he's got a psychiatric, psychological, or medical problem, seeking professional help as needed to address it. I'm assuming this Gender Identity Disorder fits one of those categories.

On the matter of reincarnation v heaven, I'd suggest discerning what he's got on his mind more fully, then educating him as best you're able regarding the Church's teachings and how we're different from New Age or other beliefs.

Above all, pray with him, if he'll allow it, and pray FOR him regardless.
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  #5  
Old Jul 26, '11, 8:03 am
Ahimsa Ahimsa is offline
 
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

If he believes in reincarnation, then you could use that fact to offer him a challenge: since his physical body is male in this lifetime, perhaps his purpose in this lifetime is to cultivate masculinity. If, in his next lifetime, he gets a female body, then, in that lifetime, he can be feminine; but for now, he is to develop masculinity.
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  #6  
Old Jul 26, '11, 8:03 am
jflare29 jflare29 is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibo View Post
My God, sorry for saying things. I guess you are American ! Americans like to have clear cut labels and that causes a problem. Read Derrida.

How did you put this label on him:Gender Identity Disorder? I would like to know what to be a female is and to know what the joys of giving birth to a child are (boy, I am joking!, it seems that it is a lot of pain!). Do I have Gender Identity Disorder ?

I think that your talk was just one talk and that does not lead to any conclusion.

Crisis of Faith are very good for they lead men to burn its bad points and grow the good ones. It is not you who are growing him out of the crisis but himself.

You may be a precious help just for being present.

Cheers and enjoy your friendship.


I'm quite puzzled by this comment; I actually wondered, at first, if you might be the person to whom Mathematoons had referred. Yet this doesn't quite look that way. What's up with this comment about Americans and labels? I can't think of any group of people I've ever met who didn't label this thing or that, if only to differentiate more easily between two different ideas or objects.
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  #7  
Old Jul 26, '11, 8:09 am
Ahimsa Ahimsa is offline
 
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

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Originally Posted by jflare29 View Post
I'm quite puzzled by this comment; I actually wondered, at first, if you might be the person to whom Mathematoons had referred. Yet this doesn't quite look that way. What's up with this comment about Americans and labels? I can't think of any group of people I've ever met who didn't label this thing or that, if only to differentiate more easily between two different ideas or objects.
He's referring to the American tendency to want to solve all problems and conquer all questions, often by labeling people as a way to gain some level of control over what is often simply beyond your control.
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  #8  
Old Jul 26, '11, 8:48 am
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JRKH JRKH is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathematoons View Post
I managed to bring a New Ager to Christ, but I've hit a snag. He has Gender Identity Disorder and asked me if people got married and had babies in Heaven. I quoted Matthew 22:30, and all of a sudden, he said he didn't want to go to Heaven, but would rather reincarnate as a female! He's having a huge crisis of faith as a result, and I don't know how to talk him out of it. On the plus side, he said if Jesus said it, it must be true. But it was the joy of Heaven that got him interested in the first place, so how do I talk him out of this crisis?

I need help ASAP.
I would explain to him that he is really looking at this rather shortsightedly. If one makes it to heaven, one is perfectly happy. At that point he would have no desire to "be a woman" any longer. He would only have the desire to exist, in perfect Love and in perfect union with God.

As to the Gender issues, I agree with others. Try to discern what sorts of counseling this person has had...
It will be a very delicate and tricky issue...
Exercise great patience and humility/

Peace
James
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  #9  
Old Jul 26, '11, 9:04 am
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

Gender Identity Disorder is a medical condition where your friend has a "female" brain in a male body.

Reassure him/her (I don't know which your friend prefers), that in Heaven he/she will not have GID, we don't know if that means they will have a female body or not as our glorified bodies are not like our present bodies. I am sure that my glorified body won't have my current diseases and disabilities (assuming I get to Heaven!) so your friend will be fine too. If it would help your friend, read them 1 Samuel 2:5: "...the childless woman has seven children now,..." or "To the childless wife He gives a home, and gladdens her heart with children" Ps 112 (113) verse 9.

The Matthew 22:30 is about marriage when it was not a free choice, it was good news for female followers that they weren't going to be forced to stay with men they hadn't chosen forever. Woman were told they were to marry so-and-so and if he died before they had a child, then she had to marry his brother, they had no say in the matter. The text is actually the Saducees, who did not believe in the resurrection, giving an exaggerated example to test Christ.

Tell your friend that Heaven is going to be so beyond what we can imagine that he/she shouldn't worry about marriage and children. Reassure him/her that they will be perfectly happy, if it would take being female and having a husband and children to do that, then I'm sure God would do that. I personally think it is going to be so different from our present existance that such things will be meaningless.

I'm praying for your friend. I hope they find their way to the Catholic Church.
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  #10  
Old Jul 26, '11, 9:20 am
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

I think it all depends on the issue. He may have a gender identity disorder or may not. He may be a she or he may be a hermaphrodite, etc. I hope you have not labeled here and that you are using the appropriate diagnosis. This is very tricky and best should be discussed with a counselor from Courage. This organization is within the teachings of the Catholic Church and will know how to move forward and help your friend.
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  #11  
Old Jul 26, '11, 10:01 pm
mathematoons mathematoons is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

Quote:
Originally Posted by starsmurf View Post
Gender Identity Disorder is a medical condition where your friend has a "female" brain in a male body.
That's how he describes himself.

Quote:
Reassure him/her (I don't know which your friend prefers)
He prefers "she," but I'm saying "he" because I use God's definition of gender. When talking to him, I speak as though he were female, but my reasoning in doing so is that if I were evangelizing to a Muslim, I would quote the Quran even though I know Islam to be a human-made religion.

Quote:
that in Heaven he/she will not have GID, we don't know if that means they will have a female body or not as our glorified bodies are not like our present bodies. I am sure that my glorified body won't have my current diseases and disabilities (assuming I get to Heaven!) so your friend will be fine too. If it would help your friend, read them 1 Samuel 2:5: "...the childless woman has seven children now,..." or "To the childless wife He gives a home, and gladdens her heart with children" Ps 112 (113) verse 9.
Thank you so much! I'll tell him these.

Quote:
The Matthew 22:30 is about marriage when it was not a free choice, it was good news for female followers that they weren't going to be forced to stay with men they hadn't chosen forever. Woman were told they were to marry so-and-so and if he died before they had a child, then she had to marry his brother, they had no say in the matter. The text is actually the Saducees, who did not believe in the resurrection, giving an exaggerated example to test Christ.
Thank you even more!!! You're a lifesaver!

Quote:
Tell your friend that Heaven is going to be so beyond what we can imagine that he/she shouldn't worry about marriage and children. Reassure him/her that they will be perfectly happy, if it would take being female and having a husband and children to do that, then I'm sure God would do that. I personally think it is going to be so different from our present existance that such things will be meaningless.
I'm reassuring him of this, but he doesn't care about the "beyond" stuff at this early point in his journey.

Quote:
I'm praying for your friend. I hope they find their way to the Catholic Church.
Me too!
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  #12  
Old Jul 27, '11, 12:04 am
ibo ibo is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

Quote:
Originally Posted by jflare29 View Post
I'm quite puzzled by this comment; I actually wondered, at first, if you might be the person to whom Mathematoons had referred. Yet this doesn't quite look that way. What's up with this comment about Americans and labels? I can't think of any group of people I've ever met who didn't label this thing or that, if only to differentiate more easily between two different ideas or objects.


No offense, but American are worse. And I tell you why. Americans, like Germans, are very well organized. When things are not organize, they enter in stress. So, Americans (let's forget about labels) like to mentally organize things. But things many times are not so well organized.

Like in my country where we wish we wer more organized and put more labels !

My idea.
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  #13  
Old Jul 27, '11, 12:05 am
ibo ibo is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

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Originally Posted by Ahimsa View Post
That will just cause more problems.

I accept. But: up to 10 words to say why, ok?
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  #14  
Old Jul 27, '11, 12:21 am
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

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Originally Posted by ibo View Post
I accept. But: up to 10 words to say why, ok?
But Derrida never used one word when 10 would do:
The capital contradiction does not have to do simply with the incredible conjunction of the sensuous and the supersensible in the same Thing; it is the contradiction of automatic autonomy, mechanical freedom, technical life. Like every thing, from the moment it comes onto the stage of a market, the table resembles a prosthesis of itself. Autonomy and automatism, but automatism of this wooden table that spontaneously puts itself into motion, to be sure, and seems thus to animate, animalise, spiritualise, spiritise itself, but while remaining an artifactual body, a sort of automaton, a puppet, a stiff and mechanical doll whose dance obeys the technical rigidity of a program. Two genres, two generations of movement intersect with each other in it, and that is why it figures the apparition of a spectre. It accumulates undecidably, in its uncanniness, their contradictory predicates: the inert thing appears suddenly inspired, it is all at once transfixed by a pneuma or a psyche. Become like a living being, the table resembles a prophetic dog that gets up on its four paws, ready to face up to its fellow dogs: an idol would like to make the law. But, inversely, the spirit, soul, or life that animates it remains caught in the opaque and heavy thingness of the bule, in the inert thickness of its ligneous body, and autonomy is no more than the mask of automatism. A mask, indeed a visor that may always be hiding no living gaze beneath the helmet. The automaton mimes the living. The Thing is neither dead nor alive, it is dead and alive at the same time. It survives. At once cunning, inventive, and machine-like, ingenious and unpredictable, this war machine is a theatrical machine, a mekhane. What one has just seen cross the stage is an apparition, a quasi-divinity fallen from the sky or come out of the earth. But the vision also survives. Its hyperlucidity insists.
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  #15  
Old Jul 27, '11, 9:13 pm
jflare29 jflare29 is offline
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Default Re: I'm in way over my head

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Originally Posted by ibo View Post
No offense, but American are worse. And I tell you why. Americans, like Germans, are very well organized. When things are not organize, they enter in stress. So, Americans (let's forget about labels) like to mentally organize things. But things many times are not so well organized.

Like in my country where we wish we wer more organized and put more labels !

My idea.
You might be surprised by how well organized we aren't, at times!
Yes, it's true enough that we can be stressed by a lack of organization sometimes. That's usually not a hint that "labeling" things has created problems though, it's usually a hint that..someone fouled something up somewhere.

I, for one, do indeed like to mentally organize things; this allows me to set priorities regarding what I need to accomplish with my time. I've never considered this a detraction.

What country do you come from?
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