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  #1  
Old Jul 26, '11, 5:38 pm
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catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
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Default Why an imperfect world?

I realize that God is infinitely above us. But scratching the surface of his Wisdom as much as we can, with the intellects he has given us, what can we say are the reasons for an imperfect world?

Now, please note that I realize in a true sense, only God is perfect, and his creation can only be finite. But what I mean is: why must we live in a world with so much suffering, a world so complicated, when we believe that in Heaven there is no suffering? So if it is true, that with a "New Heaven and a New Earth," there will be no more tears, than why must we have suffering and pain now?
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  #2  
Old Jul 26, '11, 5:50 pm
valentino valentino is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
I realize that God is infinitely above us. But scratching the surface of his Wisdom as much as we can, with the intellects he has given us, what can we say are the reasons for an imperfect world?

Now, please note that I realize in a true sense, only God is perfect, and his creation can only be finite. But what I mean is: why must we live in a world with so much suffering, a world so complicated, when we believe that in Heaven there is no suffering? So if it is true, that with a "New Heaven and a New Earth," there will be no more tears, than why must we have suffering and pain now?
Man is imperfect when he not connected to God.When Adam was connected he could do no wrong but he still wasn't as complete as God wanted him to be.God wanted us to be totally free to love Him.When Adam sinned he went in the wrong direction.Even if Adam didn't sin he still would not been what God wanted him to be.But he would least have be obedient.It was only through Christ's love for us on the cross that we could love Jesus the way God wants us to love Him.God made it possible for man to become truelly sons and friends with Him.Through faith this is accomplished.its the only way we can truelly show our love and respect for Him.Also its the only way we can truelly please Him.
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  #3  
Old Jul 26, '11, 5:51 pm
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catholictiger catholictiger is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
I realize that God is infinitely above us. But scratching the surface of his Wisdom as much as we can, with the intellects he has given us, what can we say are the reasons for an imperfect world?

Now, please note that I realize in a true sense, only God is perfect, and his creation can only be finite. But what I mean is: why must we live in a world with so much suffering, a world so complicated, when we believe that in Heaven there is no suffering? So if it is true, that with a "New Heaven and a New Earth," there will be no more tears, than why must we have suffering and pain now?
I don't think the world is imperfect

but I think the main reason we have so much pain and suffering is because of free will, because God loved us so much he gave us the freedom to chose him or not, because of this there is a lot of evil in this world. Also God allows pain and suffering to occur because he brings out greater good out of pain and suffering.
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  #4  
Old Jul 26, '11, 5:53 pm
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catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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Originally Posted by catholictiger View Post
I don't think the world is imperfect

but I think the main reason we have so much pain and suffering is because of free will, because God loved us so much he gave us the freedom to chose him or not, because of this there is a lot of evil in this world. Also God allows pain and suffering to occur because he brings out greater good out of pain and suffering.
Can you look at my other recent Q in the philosophy section, about why God would create us if he knew some would go to hell. It relates to your answer.
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  #5  
Old Jul 26, '11, 7:34 pm
stevekehl stevekehl is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

If you buy a new car and drive it off the lot straight into a utility pole do you blame the manufacturer? The world is imperfect because we choose sin.
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  #6  
Old Jul 26, '11, 7:36 pm
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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If you buy a new car and drive it off the lot straight into a utility pole do you blame the manufacturer? The world is imperfect because we choose sin.
Wouldn't imperfection in the world be prerequisite to our choosing sin?
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Old Jul 26, '11, 8:48 pm
4Horsemen 4Horsemen is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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Wouldn't imperfection in the world be prerequisite to our choosing sin?
How would imperfection in the world be prerequisite to our choosing to sin? God made the world perfect. He said everything was "good" in Genesis. Are you saying we sin because sometimes our environment is seen as a reason for some to choose evil? But, then, don't we have free will to say no to our basic desires? We do have basic needs, such as food, clothing and shelter, which if not met can increase a desire to obtain them illicitly. However, the choice is ours. We can look for licit means to fulfill our needs instead of sinning.
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  #8  
Old Jul 26, '11, 8:50 pm
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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Originally Posted by 4Horsemen View Post
How would imperfection in the world be prerequisite to our choosing to sin? God made the world perfect. He said everything was "good" in Genesis. Are you saying we sin because sometimes our environment is seen as a reason for some to choose evil? But, then, don't we have free will to say no to our basic desires? We do have basic needs, such as food, clothing and shelter, which if not met can increase a desire to obtain them illicitly. However, the choice is ours. We can look for licit means to fulfill our needs instead of sinning.
I was responding to the statement: "The world is imperfect because we choose sin." But in a perfect world, nobody would choose sin. So obviously, the world had to be imperfect before we chose to sin. Therefore, an imperfect world is prerequisite to sin. Right?
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  #9  
Old Jul 26, '11, 9:06 pm
valentino valentino is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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Originally Posted by passus View Post
Wouldn't imperfection in the world be prerequisite to our choosing sin?
that's a good question.I'll try to answer it.Say you are a one year old and you get sick.This child has done nothing to its knowledge to make itself sick.So a child must ask itself.If there is a God why did He allow me to get?So from and early age we disbelieve in God.We don't understand Him plus we don't know how to find Him nor how to please Him.So in a sense you're right.We feel God deserted us.However that's where Jesus comes in to explain why this predictament that we find ourselves in is logical.
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  #10  
Old Jul 26, '11, 9:13 pm
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catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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Originally Posted by 4Horsemen View Post
How would imperfection in the world be prerequisite to our choosing to sin? God made the world perfect. He said everything was "good" in Genesis. Are you saying we sin because sometimes our environment is seen as a reason for some to choose evil? But, then, don't we have free will to say no to our basic desires? We do have basic needs, such as food, clothing and shelter, which if not met can increase a desire to obtain them illicitly. However, the choice is ours. We can look for licit means to fulfill our needs instead of sinning.
In what sense was the world good before Adam sinned?
I've often heard that the entire Universe was messed up because of the Fall---that Original Sin had cosmic consequences. But what does this mean?

If it means there was no suffering before, like no animal suffering, then how would this square with science?
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  #11  
Old Jul 27, '11, 10:00 am
4Horsemen 4Horsemen is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
In what sense was the world good before Adam sinned?
I've often heard that the entire Universe was messed up because of the Fall---that Original Sin had cosmic consequences. But what does this mean?

If it means there was no suffering before, like no animal suffering, then how would this square with science?
As I stated above, God created a perfect world yet Adam sinned. After the Fall, the world changed. There was no more Garden of Eden. (That could be a metaphor for the condition of the world, or it could be an actual place within the world). As you said the world "was messed up."

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents." (390)


How this account connects with science is hard to understand. As St. Peter said, "Lord, I believe. Help me with my unbelief." (Mark 9:24)
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  #12  
Old Jul 27, '11, 10:08 am
4Horsemen 4Horsemen is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

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Originally Posted by passus View Post
I was responding to the statement: "The world is imperfect because we choose sin." But in a perfect world, nobody would choose sin. So obviously, the world had to be imperfect before we chose to sin. Therefore, an imperfect world is prerequisite to sin. Right?
I see your point about the necessity of an imperfect world for us to sin. IOW, if the world were perfect, there would be no sin. That's how the situation seems to be. Nevertheless, Adam and Eve DID sin in a perfect world. Metaphorically, they ate from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil." They wanted to make themselves gods and know all there is to know. That was the temptation.

Theoretically, since the world is imperfect, we will naturally sin. But, remember, we are told by Jesus to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. So we can attempt to be as perfect (virtuous) as we can be in this life.

I don't know if I answered your question. Hopefully, we can all shed some light on this subject.
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  #13  
Old Jul 27, '11, 5:29 pm
sandomenico sandomenico is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

We must have suffering and death because we chose it. It's that simple.

The pat return to that is: "I didn't choose it? Why should God punish me for Adam and Eve's sin?"

Dwell on it for a minute. Hindsight is 20-20. To the observer, satan's temptation may seem trite. But one must take Adam or Eve's place - walk around in their skin, so to speak. These people were created in the perfection of their nature. They were graced with God's Image and Likeness, Sanctifying Grace, and some extra gifts besides, including complete control over their bodies and desires. In that way, and perhaps even physically, somehow, they walked with God in the Garden. They had seen these goods and were in awe of them. They would not abandon them so lightly.

But the devil most often tempts us with goods. He did the same with Adam and Eve. Truly, the knowledge of good and evil would make them more like God. Yet, the means to achieve it would require disobedience to God's one command. So the devil attacked Adam and Eve's Faith, saying they themselves would become gods; he attacked their Hope, leading them to doubt God's ability to care for them; and he attacked their Love of God, placing their own desires above their obedience to God. And they chose to believe him, rather than God.

And this applies to us because we are all of the same nature. We are all being given chances to prove ourselves. Why complain that we are also being tested? Now is the time to prove that the devil will not conquer us. And by the happy fault of Adam and Eve, and the Passion of Christ, we are being given a much greater reward for our struggles.

God love you all,
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  #14  
Old Jul 28, '11, 11:46 pm
valentino valentino is offline
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Default Re: Why an imperfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
I realize that God is infinitely above us. But scratching the surface of his Wisdom as much as we can, with the intellects he has given us, what can we say are the reasons for an imperfect world?

Now, please note that I realize in a true sense, only God is perfect, and his creation can only be finite. But what I mean is: why must we live in a world with so much suffering, a world so complicated, when we believe that in Heaven there is no suffering? So if it is true, that with a "New Heaven and a New Earth," there will be no more tears, than why must we have suffering and pain now?
We aren't aware of God.We don't view God as someone who truelly judges us.We see Him as separate from this world and really isn't present here.Since he is apart from this world we feel we are dealing with people and therefore must struggle with them.As a result this world is in constant conflict.Jesus said"Ive overcome the world".meaning with His help we too can overcome this world and its conflicts."I bring you peace and rest for your souls".My yoke is easy and My burden light".Come to me all ye that are tired and heavy laden".
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