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  #556  
Old Oct 12, '11, 4:52 pm
George Stegmeir George Stegmeir is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by louis91766 View Post
And according to the headlines in the NYTimes today, torture is rampant in Afghanistan - under the eyes of the American occupation. And the torture described was not waterboarding, but something much more horrible to even contemplate. Anyone who read the article will probably have sleepless nights with nightmares.
Has this thread degenerated into "blame the US for everything" bashing ?
In point of fact, your comment about "little children" fails to admit that in every war there is collateral damage. Do you think that no children were killed or crippled by the carpet bombing of Hamburg, Dresden or Berlin Germany in WWII- all of which were legitimate milatary targets?
What is the differance whether the destruction was caused by one bomb/airplane or several thousands of bombs dropped by over a thousand airplanes in one night? Just take a look at the photos of these cities and compare them to the damage done by "the bomb" not a whole lot of difference.
Just be thankful that through the bomb we were able to win the war....The alternatives are just too horrific to think about....and don't think that it couldn't have happened if either Japan or Nazi Germany had gotten it first...and yes, they would have occupied us with accompanying genocide.
  #557  
Old Oct 12, '11, 5:38 pm
louis91766 louis91766 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Stegmeir View Post
Has this thread degenerated into "blame the US for everything" bashing ?
In point of fact, your comment about "little children" fails to admit that in every war there is collateral damage. Do you think that no children were killed or crippled by the carpet bombing of Hamburg, Dresden or Berlin Germany in WWII- all of which were legitimate milatary targets?
What is the differance whether the destruction was caused by one bomb/airplane or several thousands of bombs dropped by over a thousand airplanes in one night? Just take a look at the photos of these cities and compare them to the damage done by "the bomb" not a whole lot of difference.
Just be thankful that through the bomb we were able to win the war....The alternatives are just too horrific to think about....and don't think that it couldn't have happened if either Japan or Nazi Germany had gotten it first...and yes, they would have occupied us with accompanying genocide.
I would dispute any assertion that the children of Dresden, or its citizens, were legitimate targets. In my book, the carpet bombing of the civilian areas of Dresden was immoral, illegal, unethical and totally and absolutely wrong.
  #558  
Old Oct 12, '11, 8:18 pm
George Stegmeir George Stegmeir is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

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Originally Posted by louis91766 View Post
I would dispute any assertion that the children of Dresden, or its citizens, were legitimate targets. In my book, the carpet bombing of the civilian areas of Dresden was immoral, illegal, unethical and totally and absolutely wrong.
But, all accepted history books state that Dresdan was a legitimate military target and the civilian population, adults as well as children, were not the primary reason for bombing it.
Since you probably were not alive at the time and quite probably have not read the scholarly histories of WWII, you cannot possibly make a legitimate ethical judgement of those who ordered the bombings.
Remember: "Judge not, lest ye be judged".
  #559  
Old Oct 12, '11, 9:31 pm
Ross54 Ross54 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

[quote=Ghosty;8457445]
Just War Theory describes the way that wars can be carried out justly. In most cases someone has acted unjustly in the instigation of the war, but that isn't necessarily true, and it doesn't affect Just War Theory either way. It's not about making a whole war "Just", but rather it's about how to wage war justly. The injustice of certain actions in war does not justify further injustice, and being attacked unjustly does not justify responding unjustly. You can certainly have a war in which one side, or even both, have fought in an entirely moral manner, though in reality this is very unlikely given our fallen nature.


It's interesting that you post this comment. The conduct of the Japanese Army and Navy during the Russo-Japanese War was exemplary, given that war was being actively waged between the two nations. Granted, the Japanese did "jump the gun" with their surprise attack at the beginning, but records of the event describe their treatment of their captured Russian POWs as having been quite humane.

That's what made their behavior towards conquered peoples during WWII especially horrifying and reprehensible. POW's, civilians, clergy, missionaries--it made no difference to them! In the space of a few decades, the once noble Japanese had degenerated utterly into satanic cruelty that defies belief even today. By 1945, they had no friends left; only terrified victims and enraged enemies.
  #560  
Old Oct 12, '11, 9:56 pm
Mar044 Mar044 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

you know what the sad part about all this is, america before pearl harbor was xenophobic and would never had entered the war, they were provding arms and materials but didn't want to get involved in a "european war" so most americans say how they saved the world, yes they where a huge part in the war but you have to remember when my homeland of poland was invade, the nation i live now (canada) france and uk delcared war while usa sat there, and whats worse is when our army forces were in exile we fought in american and canadian units, and then when the war ended they abandoned us to the russians and my family had to live threw the horrible ussr for 40 plus years..that was our reward.....so i may love the american people but my mother and grandmother know very well the backroom deal u.s. made with russia to give up poland...and my grandfather fought with the americans for the free poland and you know what happened when he found out that american handed over poland.....russia shot him for fighting for the americans "free poland" in front of my grandmothers farm house when he returned a later.....so i feel more for the japanese i feel a deep batrayal on what they did, and its still happening to this day, america as a government only cares for herself, the people might care but at the expense of anyone else.......so yes im bias,,,,,but wouldnt you after your family fights for freedom...and whats sad.....we are now happy members of nato willing to forget all....i may forgive the batrayal of my country but not the death of my family, so why should japan forgive?
  #561  
Old Oct 12, '11, 10:04 pm
Ross54 Ross54 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

I think that the genesis of the Vatican's thinking when they've composed edicts on behaviors during war, relates to the wide disparity in the conduct of the belligerents observed by Rome through the centuries.

Ancient Greeks waged war in quite formal manner--usually. Rome also did so--frequently, but not always. Treachery and cold-blooded massacres were conducted. Wars during the medieval period were particularly brutal, especially toward the unarmed serfs. Following the Reformation, war again--usually--assumed a structure of battle between contesting armies, outside city walls. Our own "War Between the States" was a classic war in most respects: uniformed armies, contested territory, minimal pillage from the populace, attack the enemy's ability to wage war, etc. WWI began that way, then degenerated into mayhem, long-range weapons and protracted battles.

So I've surmised that Rome's proclamations have been an attempt to stem the slaughter and limit behaviors. If the warring nations share a Judaic / Christian culture, they might listen and heed the plea. But Mohammedans have no such values and feel free to wage "total war" on anyone not in their fold. And, they feel justified before God in behaving this way. So did the WWII era Japanese, both the military and the civilians.
  #562  
Old Oct 12, '11, 10:09 pm
Ross54 Ross54 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar044 View Post
you know what the sad part about all this is, america before pearl harbor was xenophobic and would never had entered the war, they were provding arms and materials but didn't want to get involved in a "european war" so most americans say how they saved the world, yes they where a huge part in the war but you have to remember when my homeland of poland was invade, the nation i live now (canada) france and uk delcared war while usa sat there, and whats worse is when our army forces were in exile we fought in american and canadian units, and then when the war ended they abandoned us to the russians and my family had to live threw the horrible ussr for 40 plus years..that was our reward.....so i may love the american people but my mother and grandmother know very well the backroom deal u.s. made with russia to give up poland...and my grandfather fought with the americans for the free poland and you know what happened when he found out that american handed over poland.....russia shot him for fighting for the americans "free poland" in front of my grandmothers farm house when he returned a later.....so i feel more for the japanese i feel a deep batrayal on what they did, and its still happening to this day, america as a government only cares for herself, the people might care but at the expense of anyone else.......so yes im bias,,,,,but wouldnt you after your family fights for freedom...and whats sad.....we are now happy members of nato willing to forget all....i may forgive the batrayal of my country but not the death of my family, so why should japan forgive?


That is a very dark chapter in our nation's history. Our shameful betrayal of the Polish people following WWII is a black mark on us, even today. Our State Dept., which made many of these decisions, was rife with influential communists even then.
  #563  
Old Oct 12, '11, 10:26 pm
louis91766 louis91766 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar044 View Post
you know what the sad part about all this is, america before pearl harbor was xenophobic and would never had entered the war, they were provding arms and materials but didn't want to get involved in a "european war" so most americans say how they saved the world, yes they where a huge part in the war but you have to remember when my homeland of poland was invade, the nation i live now (canada) france and uk delcared war while usa sat there, and whats worse is when our army forces were in exile we fought in american and canadian units, and then when the war ended they abandoned us to the russians and my family had to live threw the horrible ussr for 40 plus years..that was our reward.....so i may love the american people but my mother and grandmother know very well the backroom deal u.s. made with russia to give up poland...and my grandfather fought with the americans for the free poland and you know what happened when he found out that american handed over poland.....russia shot him for fighting for the americans "free poland" in front of my grandmothers farm house when he returned a later.....so i feel more for the japanese i feel a deep batrayal on what they did, and its still happening to this day, america as a government only cares for herself, the people might care but at the expense of anyone else.......so yes im bias,,,,,but wouldnt you after your family fights for freedom...and whats sad.....we are now happy members of nato willing to forget all....i may forgive the batrayal of my country but not the death of my family, so why should japan forgive?
Actually there were some Americans who wanted to get involved in the European war. I know that Kennedy, Sr. was against involvement, but he was overruled by FDR. FDR and Churchill did make backroom deals with the Communists. Consider for example, the slaughter of innocent people at Bleiburg. Churchill and the British handed them over to Tito knowing full well what was going to happen to them.
BTW, how are things in Poland today? Hopefully it is on the road to full integration with western Europe. I don't think it will ever get its land back, at least not in the near future.
  #564  
Old Oct 12, '11, 10:41 pm
Ghosty Ghosty is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Stegmeir View Post
Has this thread degenerated into "blame the US for everything" bashing ?
In point of fact, your comment about "little children" fails to admit that in every war there is collateral damage. Do you think that no children were killed or crippled by the carpet bombing of Hamburg, Dresden or Berlin Germany in WWII- all of which were legitimate milatary targets?
What is the differance whether the destruction was caused by one bomb/airplane or several thousands of bombs dropped by over a thousand airplanes in one night? Just take a look at the photos of these cities and compare them to the damage done by "the bomb" not a whole lot of difference.
Just be thankful that through the bomb we were able to win the war....The alternatives are just too horrific to think about....and don't think that it couldn't have happened if either Japan or Nazi Germany had gotten it first...and yes, they would have occupied us with accompanying genocide.
I can't speak to the morality of all the various bombings of WWII, as I've not studied the details of them. I don't know what the intentional targets were in Dresden, though I do know there has been some debate about it. The other cities I can't speak to at all.

The atomic bombings, however, I do know a bit about. They are not different in the scale of destruction, nor does the radiation make a significant difference to me as compared to simple firestorms. What makes them significant is that urban, civilian centers were targeted precisely for being urban, civilian centers. They had military value too, and the bombings weren't designed simply to punish the Japanese people. The civilian centers were targeted to cause the maximum amount of psychological damage and shock, in addition to the military value of the targets. The civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not simply collateral damage, they were intended targets of the bombs, and the psychological shock of the attacks was instrumental to the surrender of Imperial Japan. We know this because the documentation is readily available; we know that the Targeting Committee took all of this into consideration and specifically targeted civilian centers as opposed to pure military targets, and we know that the final surrender came in large part because of the moral and psychological shock of the weapons, not the military assets destroyed in those cities. This was all well planned out, and it worked as intended.

As I've said before, we don't have the luxury of charitably assuming that the urban/civilian destruction was an unintended consequence of the targeting of military assets. I don't know enough about the destruction of other cities in the war to know whether we have that luxury for them. The fact is that the atomic bombings are both iconic and very well documented, and that means that they hold special significance when discussing the morality of actions during war. The nuclear aspect is really unimportant in the big picture; the biggest massacres in human history, even with bombings, have been done without nukes. My own people were massacred simply by forced marches through the deserts of Syria, so I know that low-tech can be just as destructive.

Ross54:
Quote:

It's interesting that you post this comment. The conduct of the Japanese Army and Navy during the Russo-Japanese War was exemplary, given that war was being actively waged between the two nations. Granted, the Japanese did "jump the gun" with their surprise attack at the beginning, but records of the event describe their treatment of their captured Russian POWs as having been quite humane.

That's what made their behavior towards conquered peoples during WWII especially horrifying and reprehensible. POW's, civilians, clergy, missionaries--it made no difference to them! In the space of a few decades, the once noble Japanese had degenerated utterly into satanic cruelty that defies belief even today. By 1945, they had no friends left; only terrified victims and enraged enemies.
I personally believe that Imperial Japan, along with Nazi Germany, was almost preternaturally evil. It was a dark time for humanity, and the destruction of Imperial Japan was perhaps the best thing that has happened to the Japanese people in centuries, and I doubt many Japanese would disagree. The U.S. occupation not only saved Japan, but made it stronger than it had ever been before, and has made it into a world player (this is not to discount the fact that the majority of the work was Japanese and not American, merely to point out that the U.S. occupation allowed for the growth of the Japanese people without the burden of poisoned nationalism).

None of that, however, erases the moral stain of the atomic bombings. The leaders of our nation chose an intentional evil to end the war. Evil isn't so bad when it looks evil, it's only dangerous when it looks right. When the tree is good for food, and a delight to the eyes, and when it seems to make one wise, that is when there is danger. When evil looks like good, that is when Satan's hand is truly showing, and the bombings are clearly a case of that.

Peace and God bless!
__________________
But I will look for some means of going to heaven by a little way which is very short and very straight, a little way that is quite new.
  #565  
Old Oct 13, '11, 1:51 am
louis91766 louis91766 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

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Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
The leaders of our nation chose an intentional evil to end the war.
I am not so sure that this type of strategy has stopped with the end of WWII.
  #566  
Old Oct 13, '11, 2:15 am
louis91766 louis91766 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

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Originally Posted by George Stegmeir View Post
But, all accepted history books state that Dresdan was a legitimate military target and the civilian population, adults as well as children, were not the primary reason for bombing it..
Not true.
The industrial centers were not targeted. Instead the center of town was saturated with incendiary bombs meant to suffocate or burn people alive.
- The city's cultural buildings and monuments were needlessly targeted. This destroyed buildings that were hundreds of years old and could never be replaced.
You might try reading primary sources such as the report from the commander of the First Division, Brigadier General Turner to Headquarters Eighth Air Force dated February 25 1945:
It says:
"Primary Targer visual- Centre of built up area Dresden......"
  #567  
Old Oct 13, '11, 4:24 am
Calvin Hobbs Calvin Hobbs is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

It was estimated we (the good guys) would suffer casualties of 1,000,000 men to invade Japan. Those that fought the war have a right to self-preservation. It is the home of the free because of the brave.
This blame America first has even reached EWTN where they have taken to praying for the terrorists but not our troops. I say hit them in that plate they pass 10 times an hour down there!
Semper Fidelis
Bruce
  #568  
Old Oct 13, '11, 8:09 am
GKC GKC is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

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Originally Posted by louis91766 View Post
Not true.
The industrial centers were not targeted. Instead the center of town was saturated with incendiary bombs meant to suffocate or burn people alive.
- The city's cultural buildings and monuments were needlessly targeted. This destroyed buildings that were hundreds of years old and could never be replaced.
You might try reading primary sources such as the report from the commander of the First Division, Brigadier General Turner to Headquarters Eighth Air Force dated February 25 1945:
It says:
"Primary Targer visual- Centre of built up area Dresden......"

I always like to work books into these discussions. Frederick Taylor (not the General)/ DRESDEN:TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 1945 is a very balanced account of subject. And, on page 318, can be found more of General Taylor's statement.

GKC
  #569  
Old Oct 13, '11, 8:31 am
Ghosty Ghosty is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbs View Post
It was estimated we (the good guys) would suffer casualties of 1,000,000 men to invade Japan. Those that fought the war have a right to self-preservation. It is the home of the free because of the brave.
This blame America first has even reached EWTN where they have taken to praying for the terrorists but not our troops. I say hit them in that plate they pass 10 times an hour down there!
Semper Fidelis
Bruce
This is a bit off-topic, but perhaps the terrorists need the prayers more than our troops? Everyone needs prayers, but between a soldier fighting a just battle to defend his people and a terrorist bent on murder and destruction, the terrorist certainly needs more prayers.

That's why I made sure to request Mass intentions for Osama bin Laden after his death; the world is better off with him dead, but I don't know that he is.

Don't fear that which can only kill the body, but that which destroys both the body and soul in Hell. This is why I'm not so impressed by casualty figures, as they tell us nothing of the moral and spiritual damage which is far more significant.

Peace and God bless!
__________________
But I will look for some means of going to heaven by a little way which is very short and very straight, a little way that is quite new.
  #570  
Old Oct 13, '11, 11:49 am
louis91766 louis91766 is offline
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Default Re: The Atomic Bomb

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Originally Posted by GKC View Post
I always like to work books into these discussions. Frederick Taylor (not the General)/ DRESDEN:TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 1945 is a very balanced account of subject. And, on page 318, can be found more of General Taylor's statement.

GKC
That book is not balanced because Mr. Taylor downplays the gunning down of civilians by the allies. For a picture of how civilians were targeted in Germany in WWII, read instead to Destroy a City by Herman Knell, the story of German man who lived through the bombing of Würzburg, Germany.
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