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  #1  
Old Aug 5, '11, 6:25 am
LPS LPS is offline
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Default Tobit Chapter 3

I found a beautiful passage in Tobit this morning, 3:21-22 in the Douay Rhimes. But when I went to look it up in the NAB, it isn't there.

I can't find anything in the footnotes or introductions about why this is ... can anyone help me?

21 But this every one is sure of that worshippeth thee, that his life, if it be under trial, shall be crowned: and if it be under tribulation, it shall be delivered: and if it be under correction, it shall be allowed to come to thy mercy.
22 For thou art not delighted in our being lost: because after a storm thou makest a calm, and after tears and weeping thou pourest in joyfulness.
23 Be thy name, O God of Israel, blessed for ever. (Tobit 3)
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  #2  
Old Aug 5, '11, 7:27 am
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by LPS View Post
I found a beautiful passage in Tobit this morning, 3:21-22 in the Douay Rhimes. But when I went to look it up in the NAB, it isn't there.

I can't find anything in the footnotes or introductions about why this is ... can anyone help me?

21 But this every one is sure of that worshippeth thee, that his life, if it be under trial, shall be crowned: and if it be under tribulation, it shall be delivered: and if it be under correction, it shall be allowed to come to thy mercy.
22 For thou art not delighted in our being lost: because after a storm thou makest a calm, and after tears and weeping thou pourest in joyfulness.
23 Be thy name, O God of Israel, blessed for ever. (Tobit 3)
In my RSV, as an endnote for Tobit 3:11-15, it says "The Vulgate version of this prayer (verses 13-23) reads as follows...".

It is probably a passage that is found in some but not all ancient manuscripts.
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  #3  
Old Aug 5, '11, 7:56 am
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svid2 svid2 is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

My D-R has it. The book of Tobias. My D-R is published by St. Benedict Press, 2009.
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  #4  
Old Aug 5, '11, 9:24 pm
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

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Originally Posted by svid2 View Post
My D-R has it. The book of Tobias. My D-R is published by St. Benedict Press, 2009.
That makes sense since the D-R is a translation of the Vulgate.
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The more I follow the online discussions ... the more I follow the debates and disagreements in the Church about administrative unity, or the concerns expressed about the moral or personal or administrative or leadership failings of the bishops or the clergy, the more I become convinced that whatever might be the truth of these concerns, ALL of this is simply a distraction. No, itís more than that. Itís a justification, an excuse, for not helping each other and those outside the Church fall in love with Jesus Christ. How easy it is to talk about everything, but about Jesus hardly at all.

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  #5  
Old Aug 5, '11, 10:48 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe 5859 View Post
That makes sense since the D-R is a translation of the Vulgate.
I really love the prayers that came out of this book, my favorite line was in chapter 4 when Tobit gives instructions to his son, Tobias. I had the same problem, a while back when I went shopping for another bible - and knew that some didn't carry the book of Tobit but the ones that did I tried to look "not" for the new translation (English) as you can tell by the last prayer in Chapter 13 - the older version is something I look for. The New Jerusalem bible - on this translation has been update or reinterpreted.....so if anyone has thought to this:

13:2 For he doth scourge, and hath mercy: he leadeth down to hell, and bringeth up again: neither is there any that can avoid his hand.

Now read 1 Samuel 2:

6 ďThe LORD brings death and makes alive;
he brings down to the grave and raises up.
7 The LORD sends poverty and wealth;
he humbles and he exalts.
8 He raises the poor from the dust
and lifts the needy from the ash heap;
he seats them with princes
and has them inherit a throne of honor.

and another line was:

14 Nations from afar shall come to thee: and shall bring gifts, and shall adore the Lord in thee, and shall esteem thy land as holy.

which testifies to Matthew account:

9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.




Also some addt'l Information:

Quote:
The Book of Tobias, as it is called in the Latin Vulgate Bible, is also known in the Greek Septuagint as the Book of Tobit. Both the Semitic origin of the book and the name Tobiah - טוֹבִיָּה, which means "Yahweh is my good," have been appreciated since antiquity. Link

"What is the book of Tobit?"

Answer: Tobit is part of what is considered the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonical scripture and appears in the Old Testament of Catholic Bibles. Except for some Episcopal or Lutheran Bibles, Tobit and other books of the Apocrypha do not appear in Protestant Bibles. Apocrypha means Ďhiddení and Deuterocanonical means Ďsecond-listed.í Books of the Apocrypha were generally written in the roughly 400 years between the composition of the books in the Old and New Testaments, the so-called intertestamental period. Tobit is one of 12-15 books generally recognized as comprising the Apocrypha.
See also: The Book of Tobit
a Chaldee text from a unique MS. in the Bodleian library, with other Rabbinical texts, English translations and the Itala
ed. A. Neubauer. Published 1878 in Oxford .

You can read this on line *edit* (I don't know if this website will direct you to the on line version: http://www.peshitta.org/ - I had to key in what I needed)
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  #6  
Old Aug 5, '11, 11:12 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

add on: the book is listed under: Board index č Old Testament >Tobias

The website:

Here's the links I think you were looking for:
http://www.archive.org/details/bookofto ... 00oxfouoft <= Has The Chaldee Text (Aramaic) and the Hebrew Translation of it, followed by an English translation (It is in Ashuri Tav)The book will appear and you can click on it - the pages will flip from on page to the next

http://www.peshitta.org/
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  #7  
Old Aug 6, '11, 9:10 am
LPS LPS is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

Thank you all for your replies! You've given me more to dig in & study. I'm just really surprised - I never knew that fully approved Catholic editions would have different passages included or not included. Great learning curve for me!
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  #8  
Old Aug 7, '11, 7:53 pm
fred conty fred conty is online now
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by LPS View Post
Thank you all for your replies! You've given me more to dig in & study. I'm just really surprised - I never knew that fully approved Catholic editions would have different passages included or not included. Great learning curve for me!
Hi,
It isn't in the Jerusalem (catholic) bible either.
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  #9  
Old Aug 8, '11, 5:36 am
LPS LPS is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

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Originally Posted by fred conty View Post
Hi,
It isn't in the Jerusalem (catholic) bible either.
That's too bad - it really is a beautiful passage. I wonder how many other differences there are? I knew Psalms are numbered differently, but I think they are all there ... interesting.
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  #10  
Old Aug 8, '11, 8:12 am
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Joe 5859 Joe 5859 is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by LPS View Post
Thank you all for your replies! You've given me more to dig in & study. I'm just really surprised - I never knew that fully approved Catholic editions would have different passages included or not included. Great learning curve for me!
Yes, it is interesting. Of course, there are no major differences ("Hey, this version includes a fourth person of the Trinity!" ), but there are some differences. Most of the ones I have come across have to do with differences between the ancient texts (Septuagint, Vulgate, Masoretic text, etc.).

You can definitely spend a lot of time researching those things!
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The more I follow the online discussions ... the more I follow the debates and disagreements in the Church about administrative unity, or the concerns expressed about the moral or personal or administrative or leadership failings of the bishops or the clergy, the more I become convinced that whatever might be the truth of these concerns, ALL of this is simply a distraction. No, itís more than that. Itís a justification, an excuse, for not helping each other and those outside the Church fall in love with Jesus Christ. How easy it is to talk about everything, but about Jesus hardly at all.

- Fr. Gregory Jensen
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  #11  
Old Aug 9, '11, 4:59 am
Oldtimer_7 Oldtimer_7 is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

When we were studying the Deuterocanonicals, I started out using the D-R, while others in the class had NRSV's. My versions were different enough, that, when we did readings, I was asked to use the NRSV. I recall the first time I read the D-R version of a passage, there were looks of consternation as the others tried to follow along in their Bibles.

The D-R was based on the same Byzantine line of texts that Erasmus used to write the Textus Receptus. The NRSV based on the Alexandrian line, exemplified by the codices Siniaticus and Vaticanus. These were more elaborated tellings, though basic themes remain the same.
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  #12  
Old Aug 9, '11, 11:23 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

Quote:
=LPS;8207633]I found a beautiful passage in Tobit this morning, 3:21-22 in the Douay Rhimes. But when I went to look it up in the NAB, it isn't there.

I can't find anything in the footnotes or introductions about why this is ... can anyone help me?

21 But this every one is sure of that worshippeth thee, that his life, if it be under trial, shall be crowned: and if it be under tribulation, it shall be delivered: and if it be under correction, it shall be allowed to come to thy mercy.
22 For thou art not delighted in our being lost: because after a storm thou makest a calm, and after tears and weeping thou pourest in joyfulness.
23 Be thy name, O God of Israel, blessed for ever. (Tobit 3)
I too found it ONLY in the D R Bible?
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  #13  
Old Aug 9, '11, 10:25 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldtimer_7 View Post
When we were studying the Deuterocanonicals, I started out using the D-R, while others in the class had NRSV's. My versions were different enough, that, when we did readings, I was asked to use the NRSV. I recall the first time I read the D-R version of a passage, there were looks of consternation as the others tried to follow along in their Bibles.

The D-R was based on the same Byzantine line of texts that Erasmus used to write the Textus Receptus. The NRSV based on the Alexandrian line, exemplified by the codices Siniaticus and Vaticanus. These were more elaborated tellings, though basic themes remain the same.
Hi Oldtimer,

I had a question/comment about the book of Tobit as well as many other scriptural passages and also I like the fact that you mentioned that your versions were different. Even though that you were asked to use the NRSV - did you still rely on D-R when your tried to understand a passage or passages? I've come across some differences not only in the book of Tobit but in other books in the old Testament. Which one should be considered? Personally, I like the older version and not the updated version, especially when it seems to connect with other passages. I had asked someone else about this - and both of us could connect them through the new testament - it seemed easier. I brought up another passage in Tobit, (chapter 13), I think it takes away from the original intent of the passage.

You say that the D-R was based on the same Byzantine line of texts, so was this a true form of the text?- This from what I understand is in line with the Syrian bible, correct? where the other is Greek? when searching through the passage - you would almost have to read or look on line to compare on passages? The passage on 12:12, where the angel Raphael takes both Tobit's and Sarah's prayers and petitions them to God. There are numerous situations in scripture where people came in contact with angelic beings and responded to them like they were regular mortals, apparently unable to discern they were angels. So the whole part of scripture is toward how we interpret the passages - are we basing them on which bible? - or are we looking for commentaries on the meaning or on the history behind them. You really have to look at each bible - and do some research.

More or less, one would have to have really do some comparisons - or find out if there's been an amendment (?) - not additions, updates on the passages. I started to read up on the Syrian bible (Peshitta - Syrian Vulgate) - just as to look for certain scriptural passage, as a way for me to compare, it was interesting. But the book excludes certain disputed books 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.


Mary
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  #14  
Old Aug 10, '11, 8:00 pm
Oldtimer_7 Oldtimer_7 is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

The Deuterocanonical books in the Byzantine and the Alexandrian lines do not differ in the basic message, but in the elaboration. If you think of it like the Gospels of Mark and Matthew. they cover the same material, but one fleshes it out more than the other. It is also possible to compare them to the Dead Sea scrolls and see that they are the same stories told in different textual traditions.

In general, all the major Bible translations have about 97% agreement. The remaining 3% have had no effect on either dogma or doctrine. This is in itself a miracle if you think of all the generations of copying and that the Bible has been translated in over 2,000 languages and dialects.

In my area, both Catholics and Lutherans are minorities. Many of our converts came from Baptist or Methodist traditions, so they have not been exposed the the Deuterocanonicals. One of my reasons for teaching a Bible study on them was to acquaint them with these books. We occasionally have Deuterocanonical texts listed as alternate readings, so it would be good for people to know whence they come and what their significance is in Christian tradition.

The Syriac Peshitta was actually written after the Vulgate was translated from Greek and Hebrew by Saint Jerome. In the Old Testament, it is close to the Masoretic text. The New Testament is variable, suggesting that it used a number of sources.

Finally, how does one determine which text is older? First, it is shorter. Look at the difference in length between Mark and either Matthew or Luke. Second, it has the harder sayings. Scribes tried to make thoughts easier to understand or tried to harmonize them with other ideas. I have commentaries on single books of the Bible that are longer than the New Testament. The Book of Acts in my Catholic Rainbow Study Bible is 54 pages, while my copy of The Acts of the Apostles in the Sacra Pagina series is 568 pages.
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Old Aug 11, '11, 3:39 am
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Tobit Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldtimer_7 View Post
The Deuterocanonical books in the Byzantine and the Alexandrian lines do not differ in the basic message, but in the elaboration. If you think of it like the Gospels of Mark and Matthew. they cover the same material, but one fleshes it out more than the other. It is also possible to compare them to the Dead Sea scrolls and see that they are the same stories told in different textual traditions.

In general, all the major Bible translations have about 97% agreement. The remaining 3% have had no effect on either dogma or doctrine. This is in itself a miracle if you think of all the generations of copying and that the Bible has been translated in over 2,000 languages and dialects.

In my area, both Catholics and Lutherans are minorities. Many of our converts came from Baptist or Methodist traditions, so they have not been exposed the the Deuterocanonicals. One of my reasons for teaching a Bible study on them was to acquaint them with these books. We occasionally have Deuterocanonical texts listed as alternate readings, so it would be good for people to know whence they come and what their significance is in Christian tradition.

The Syriac Peshitta was actually written after the Vulgate was translated from Greek and Hebrew by Saint Jerome. In the Old Testament, it is close to the Masoretic text. The New Testament is variable, suggesting that it used a number of sources.

Finally, how does one determine which text is older? First, it is shorter. Look at the difference in length between Mark and either Matthew or Luke. Second, it has the harder sayings. Scribes tried to make thoughts easier to understand or tried to harmonize them with other ideas. I have commentaries on single books of the Bible that are longer than the New Testament. The Book of Acts in my Catholic Rainbow Study Bible is 54 pages, while my copy of The Acts of the Apostles in the Sacra Pagina series is 568 pages.
Thank you so much for all the information that you provide - it helps a great deal!!!


Mary
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