Is it a sin to own lots of stuff?

[MtnDwellar]

Originally Posted by manualman

Everybody posting on CAF from a homeless shelter please raise your virtual hand, please. (crickets chirping....)

Be real. People in crisis are out there scrambling for survival. CAF is filled with people taking a break from their other things. People reading this are overwhelmingly housed, heated/air conditioned, have access to medical care most of human history never dreamed of and have nutritional problems generally associated with too much food rather than not enough. As I mentioned earlier, I commute to work every day in a 16 year old econocar, have a mortgage several times larger than my annual income, have very little in my 'rainy day' fund and I consider myself obnoxiously wealthy. Most humans in history live(d) in crude shelters, seasonally alternate between sweating and shivering, died younger from medical issues, labored hard with their bodies, and endured periodic hunger. If that ain't you, you're rich too.

I will ignore the sarcasm, but will try to be real. CAF is read all over the world. There are hunger and poor living conditions everywhere. To suggest that everyone reading this site is "unimaginably wealthy by global/historic standards" is naive. Reading that statement must be very frustrating for someone who is struggling to stay alive. I know that when I was cold, hungry, and homeless, it would have bothered me.....Hmmmm, still does.

[manualman]

Still nobody posting from a homeless shelter? PM me and I'll publicly retract.

We have a FEW overseas posters, but the overwhelming majority of posters (betcha 99%+) are lower middle class and richer Americans. And by historic/global standards, I stick by my claim that that means rich. My income and standard of living is nothing special in America. But the reality is that I'm probably in the top 1% of luxury among the 4 BILLION on earth today, not to mention all that have come before me. That's a sobering reminder to me when I evaluate my giving.

[MtnDwellar]

Originally Posted by manualman

Still nobody posting from a homeless shelter? PM me and I'll publicly retract.

We have a FEW overseas posters, but the overwhelming majority of posters (betcha 99%+) are lower middle class and richer Americans. And by historic/global standards, I stick by my claim that that means rich. My income and standard of living is nothing special in America. But the reality is that I'm probably in the top 1% of luxury among the 4 BILLION on earth today, not to mention all that have come before me. That's a sobering reminder to me when I evaluate my giving.

Again, I will ignore the sarcasm.

OK. So, you have backed off from "And let's be honest, by global/historical standards, every single one of us reading this is unimaginably wealthy.". That's all I wanted.

[manualman]

Such a boring world with no hyperbole allowed.

[Joseph Kemp]

Manuelman WROTE: “the reality is that I'm probably in the top 1% of luxury among the 4 BILLION on earth today, not to mention all that have come before me. That's a sobering reminder to me when I evaluate my giving.”

- Why are people so obsessed with giving money? We are not living ATM machines. Our entry into Heaven is NOT determined by how much we give. Mother Theresa herself pointed this out:

“It's not how much we give but how much love we put into giving.”

She also said:

"I am not sure exactly what heaven will be like, but I do know that when we die and it comes time for God to judge us, he will NOT ask, How many good things have you done in your life?, rather he will ask, How much LOVE did you put into what you did?"

The only thing that will keep you out of Heaven is mortal sin, not an insufficient number of good works. And that includes giving money.

Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin wrote a pretty good article on this, too:

http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/01/fear_of_going_t.html

The Catholic Answers Staff have already addressed how Christians are to give to the Church:
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Scripture provides insight on how Christians should give:

“On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper. (1 Cor. 16:2)”

“The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Cor. 9:6–7)

There is no mandatory requirement to give a specific amount of money or percentage of our income. We should each decide for ourselves how much to give and then do so in the true spirit of giving a gift.
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The Catholic Answers Staff go on to say: “To paraphrase: God doesn't demand a fixed amount of money from us; he wants us to give from the heart. If people are forced by their church to give a certain percent of their income, that's extortion.”

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/qui.../keyword/tithe

This is very different than most of the things I see on the Internet on the topic of giving.

Some people have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank, but they only give (perhaps) $5 in Church. There is nothing wrong with this. And there are others who make far less who give much more than that.

The point is, it is absolutely no one else’s business how much money you decide to give away to the Church, or anywhere else. That is between you and God. No one has the right to make a person feel guilty for what they give, or do not give, no matter what the amount. Our Church does not take this position, and we as Catholics should not either. I am always shocked when I see many Catholics doing so anyway.

Anyone who thinks that God demands some kind of “proportionate giving” is stating a totally subjective, personal belief. It is not Church doctrine. We give as we have “made up (our) mind,” as in Corinthians 2. THAT is official Church teaching. If you disagree with this, you are flatly wrong.

Why am I so alone in proclaiming this? The only ones on my side seem to be the Catholic Answers Staff, Mother Theresa, official Church Doctrine, and the Bible. Many ordinary Catholics seem to disagree with the Church’s teaching in this area, although I can’t imagine why. Such inattention to detail strikes me as bad reasoning, and is not helpful to anyone.

Incidentally, I must thank NEWF for pointing out the obvious: it is no sin to own a Ferrari (or anything else.) NEWF is correct in saying that some people simply cannot tolerate other people’s wealth. They get jealous, and say hurtful things for nothing. If they can’t get the money, some people try to get revenge by implying that the rich are not giving “enough,” whatever that means, and that they are going to Hell. This is thoroughly uncharitable, and quite wrong, since there is no defined “amount” for getting into Heaven. According to the teaching of the Church, people should simply give as they have “made up (their) mind.” No Catholic is required to believe or to do otherwise in any way whatsoever.

[MtnDwellar]

I think there is a misunderstanding of some Church teachings as well as some of the statements made on this forum.

When St. Theresa talks about not being required to give large sums to charity, she is talking to the poor who do not have much to give. It is same the same idea as the widow's mite from scripture. Remember, that widow's small gift was more pleasing than the larger gifts of the rich men, but, the widow gave all that she had. The message is that any sacrifice is virtuous.

The Church does not teach, nor do the posters, that giving any proportionate sum of wealth is required. The Church doctrine basically prescribes the minimum requirements for salvation. The Church teaches that charity is good and tells us to give within our means. The Church also teaches us to save. It is totally a personal decision. This is a forum, we can give our own opinions. Clearly, many people choose to go beyond the minimum.

I don't believe that those who propose a more Spartan lifestyle do so because they cannot tolerate another person's wealth or due to jealousy. They are simply stating their own decisions. Personally, I don't compare and could not care less about the things that someone else owns.

[LoveRoses]

Joseph, I read your post and think I understand what you're asking about. Your friend is actually afraid of owning things. I'm not sure why. First let me say that I agree with the pervasive sentiment that God does not put a limit on our abundance, and that owning things in and of itself is not sinful in the least. It becomes a burden when "things" start to overtake us and become a priority in our lives, or the "seeking of them" becomes a priority. Things (inanimate objects) have their place, and I don't think there is anything sinful in the least.

Maybe an easier way to look at it is this: God created "things." Anything that is in form on this earth was created by God. Money is simply a form of energy, and necessary current that needs to swirl around the earth to keep movement of growth, and to provide the basic measure of keeping the fundamentals (housing, food, clothing) in our lives. If you buy a luxury car, for example, it's a thing. People work to creat that thing. It provides job source, a flow in the job market. Productivity.

There is no honor in poverty. For those who choose to live a vow of poverty, that's a different example. Most people don't willingly take that vow, and living in poverty causes a tremendous amount of adversity and difficulty in life. I'll give you an example of my own life. My mother had a similar mindset as your friend does ... she thought "things" were evil. I never understood why. I've met very weathly people who were generous, giving and charitable and did wonderful work with their money, giving back to help mankind. And, I've met the opposite, wealthy people who were selfish, greedy and consumed with themselves and idolizing a wrong God. Same goes for poor people -- generous, charitable poor people walk this earth, as do angry and greedy poor people. So as we can see, it's what's in the heart and soul, not the pocketbook.

I struggled for many years with finances. I had tremendous adversity at times not being able to provide for myself. A few years ago, during an incredibly difficult and fearful time, I simply cried out to God. I knew I couldn't survive on this earth, or be the person I felt compelled to be, if I were to keep living in this swirl of financial adversity. Long story short... something changed suddenly by an act of God and I was given a second lease on life to pull myself up. I was incredibly grateful to God and mindful to change my attitude, to stop dwelling in a poor financial mindset. I've always been focused on being a productive member of society, now I understand that with God's abundance, I'm healthier and have more energy to give back.

I bought myself a luxury car after not having a car for many years. I drive it with a smile in my heart. It's not to "show off" nor is it to symbolize anything in particular. I simply enjoy the car. It's well made and comfortable. It's wonderful having a car after not having one -- it's freedom, it gives me so much more time in my life that was previously spent waiting on buses. I'm more effective and have more time to do important things. It's easier being mobile in this way. God gave me the car. It's as simple as that in my mind.

Remind your friend there is absolutely nothing sinful in owning things. It's when they own you that is become a problem. I hope this helps.

[BobCatholic]

We are not allowed to be prosperous. We are required to carry our cross.

[LoveRoses]

I have to disagree with the statement that God does not want us to be prosperous. Prosperity can be either a blessing or a curse, it is the free will of man to decide how to interpret it.

The bible is filled with prosperous men, King Solomon, King David and also scripture that shows us God's abundance is meant for us. Christ died so we could live more abundantly and freely, even while on this earth, not just our eternal lives. There are more and more stories in the news these days of "righteous" people winning lottery jackpots and obtaining wealth they believe was a direct gift of the Lord. Read the life story of "S. Truett Cathy" the founder of Chik-fil-A. Remarkable man of God. To this day you will see "John 3:16" printed on his cups. He thrived and created remarkable wealth through the word of God. Even to this day, his business continues to grow and thrive while others are petering in this economy.

Why is this? The man put God in his life and heart first, and all things were given to him. He also happens to use his abundance for philanthropic efforts and to spread hope and faith in this world.

Sometimes poverty is put in a life for suffering or a lesson, to illuminate something the person may need to understand. Most of the time it is mad-made. We are created in God's image, to fulfill and be the best we can be on this earth, with humility and reverence to God first. Money is a currency the Lord created. How we choose to accept it, use it and view it is up to a person. A righteous person, one who chooses to put God first in his heart and head makes a wonderful rich man.

[tomarin]

Originally Posted by manualman

Everybody posting on CAF from a homeless shelter please raise your virtual hand, please. (crickets chirping....)

Be real. People in crisis are out there scrambling for survival. CAF is filled with people taking a break from their other things. People reading this are overwhelmingly housed, heated/air conditioned, have access to medical care most of human history never dreamed of and have nutritional problems generally associated with too much food rather than not enough. As I mentioned earlier, I commute to work every day in a 16 year old econocar, have a mortgage several times larger than my annual income, have very little in my 'rainy day' fund and I consider myself obnoxiously wealthy. Most humans in history live(d) in crude shelters, seasonally alternate between sweating and shivering, died younger from medical issues, labored hard with their bodies, and endured periodic hunger. If that ain't you, you're rich too.

Don't forget wireless.

[mjshonnard]

I have had worries about this issue, too, my family being wealthy. I am a bit scrupulous, (about nearly everything, certainly not just on this issue) and would like a definitive answer. I see that there are widely varying opinions on this thread. While I do not quite agree with Mr. Kemp that we may enjoy our money in any way we please and own anything we want, I also do not agree with a complete condemnation of "luxury" items (the term "luxury" is so subjective anyway. perhaps condemned "luxury" or the "vice of luxury" would mean something more like an attitude of wanton self indulgence?). St. Thomas More lived in a large house, described as the "family mansion house" by Monti's "The Kings Good Servant but God's First: The Life and Writings of St. Thomas More" published my Ignatius Press. Just look up pictures of a modern reconstruction of his house and this description will make sense. This book also describes that he built for himself on the grounds of his estate a new, separate building for prayer purposes. This obviously requires a lot of money, and would probably be considered unecessary by some, even though it was for a holy purpose.

As for those who condemn nice cars (Mercedes, Ferrari, Audi, etc.), consider also that the popemobile is currently a Mercedes and used to be a Lincoln. I do not think that the pope would give support and advertising to such companies if luxury cars are evil.

I would think that buying nice things would not be sinful as long as it does not get in the way of generous, free, charitable giving, and does not become an idol, source of pride, or occasion of sin. Anne Carroll's book Following Christ in the World published by Seton Press (and approved for use in religious instruction by a Virginian bishop) says that justice requires those who make a lot of money to give some of their surplus to those who do not have enough. It does not say all of their surplus. Thus, the remaining surplus would be available for using for unecessary items.

Although I have obviously argued a certain viewpoint in this post, my goal is to find Truth and official Church teaching, not my opinion or someone else's.

Thus if any of the apologists are reading this thread, I would appreciate a "final word."

[mjshonnard]

Originally Posted by BobCatholic

We are not allowed to be prosperous. We are required to carry our cross.

St. Thomas More, Joseph of Arimathea, Abraham, Job, Philemon, and many other saints in history and the Bible were prosperous. Even a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism (with a nihil obstat) says that the desire for material prosperity is acceptable as long as propserity is gained through "honest means" and is not an occasion of sin.

Furthermore, prosperity and carrying our cross are not mutually exclusive. St. Thomas More, for example, carried the voluntary cross of a hairshirt even though he was wealthy.

Nowhere in any official Catholic teaching whatsoever does it say that we are not allowed to be prosperous. I suggest reading the online Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Evangelical Counsels at newadvent.org. It is very true that prosperity can be an obstacle to holiness and perfection, but it is not forbidden, except in the circumstances mentioned in the article.

I am afraid you are a bit misguided and hold a viewpoint that is very easily misinterpreted from Scripture.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by mjshonnard

Although I have obviously argued a certain viewpoint in this post, my goal is to find Truth and official Church teaching, not my opinion or someone else's.

Go here, read all of these, pray.

No one can give you this answer, it's inside you.

[mjshonnard]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

Go here, read all of these, pray.

No one can give you this answer, it's inside you.

I realize the necessity and grave obligation of giving to charity out of one's wealth. I have never and will never dispute that, but "luxury" items and giving to charity are not mutually exclusive, as long as you don't buy so much stuff that you don't have enough money left to give to the poor.

What do you mean by your last sentence? Are you saying that it is up to the individual conscience to decide? Or are you implying the existence of an obvious answer that I do not know? Thank your for your help and response, but, being scrupulous, vague answers can be problematic and worry causing for my conscience. I pray every day for me to know and to follow God's will, and, if it be His will, to take away my scrupulosity so that I can stop worrying and think for myself. Having scrupulosity, though, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible in some cases, to come up with answers to moral problems through thought and introspection.

I don't quite know what you mean by saying that no one can give me the answer. I would appreciate clarification.

Thank you so much for your help and concern and God bless you.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by mjshonnard

I pray every day for me to know and to follow God's will, and, if it be His will, to take away my scrupulosity so that I can stop worrying and think for myself. Having scrupulosity, though, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible in some cases, to come up with answers to moral problems through thought and introspection.

I don't quite know what you mean by saying that no one can give me the answer. I would appreciate clarification.

Thank you so much for your help and concern and God bless you.

You know, I think there are two relevant Scripture passages we might look at for some discernment. The first is the story about the rich man and the beggar in Luke 16:

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

The rich man in the story is a Jew, and as this parable is taught by my Pastor, he was an important man who surely tithed exactly as much to his synagogue as he was supposed to. We might say "scrupulously." His sin was in seeing someone who needed his help and ignoring that need. Our problem is, if we live in Beverly Hills, or even in a standard suburb, we simply never see the poor.

Doing what his church told him to do, wasn't enough. What does Jesus say?

Mark 12:41-44

41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.
43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

You want an amount, you want to do what is "right." Sounds to me like God is demanding more of you.

So how about asking yourself some questions: how many pair of shoes do you own and how many do you need? I own three.

How many TVs do you have and do you need any of them? How much did you pay for your car and why? How much food do you throw away?

When do you look for people to help? Who can you help and how much? Can you teach a child to read who just feels helpless and stupid in his classes? Do you know there are children barely out of infancy wandering around trash dumps in Mexico City because they have no families and no food? Can you help?

You want to know what size check to write. But your vocation is to show forth the image of Christ to the world.

Sin: Guy LaLiberte paid 27million dollars to the Russians for a ride to space. He also started a foundation to get clean water to people that he solicits donations for. "One Drop."

How much water, how many wells, how much could that 27million have done? That's sin. $50,000+ cars are sin. $500+ handbags are sin. Imported black truffle oil: sin. $3000 sheets...well, you get the idea.

I think the question that you might (I can be very wrong) need to answer here is not what you should do: but what you can do. That's the answer in your heart and mind, the one no one else can give you. To find something needing doing and do it because you are able. When you find the need and find the ability to help and then do, that's enough.

Smile Train is good. UNICEF is good. Your local food bank is excellent. Poor women who need a some decent clothes to interview for decent jobs, there are several charities around the country. Find one in your area and give them your clothes, but have them cleaned and pressed and made nice. Some cities have daycare for homeless children, they are always in desperate need. Call a prison and speak to the chaplain and ask him what he needs there. Just do it.

I believe these sisters have an active affiliate program: http://www.sistersofmercy.org/

Do as much as you can wherever you can. Get out of your head and go find Lazarus! You'll be way too busy to worry about being scrupulous.