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View Poll Results: Is homosexuality:
A lifestyle choice? 2 5.88%
A curse by God upon man? 0 0%
A cross to bear while living a chaste life? 32 94.12%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old Aug 16, '11, 8:35 am
searching04 searching04 is offline
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Default God and Homosexuality

Recent comments in threads and discussions with family and friends made me want to ask what others think on God and homosexuality.

Personally, I believe it is a choice of a lifestyle stemming from other social factors. However, the agugment comes up that "God created homosexuals, too". I do not and cannot believe that God, making man in His own image, is somehow gay. Ludicrous. One of my daughter's friends who is gay, was crying with her one day and asked, "Do you think I want to be this way?" So why, then, are there homosexuals? Only three things come to mind that even make sense, so here's a poll and as a Catholic, I'd like to know:

Is it is lifestyle choice?
Is it God's curse upon man?
Is it a cross they are to bear in this life as they live a chaste life?

Last edited by searching04; Aug 16, '11 at 8:46 am. Reason: Rats, no poll!
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  #2  
Old Aug 16, '11, 8:55 am
Em_in_FL Em_in_FL is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Catechism addresses this pretty clearly...
HTH!



Chastity and homosexuality

2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
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  #3  
Old Aug 16, '11, 9:07 am
searching04 searching04 is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Em_in_FL View Post
Catechism addresses this pretty clearly...
HTH!



Chastity and homosexuality

2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Thanks!
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  #4  
Old Aug 16, '11, 10:17 am
BrotherAlan BrotherAlan is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Any evil is allowed by God to bring about a greater good. A disoredered condition in man is an evil and, thus, is allowed by God to bring about a greater good. Homosexuality is one such disordered condition. Therefore, like any disordered condition in man-- whether it be of a physical, psychological, moral, or spiritual nature (all of which, to one degree or another, could be involved in the condition of homosexuality)-- God allows/permits some to experience such a condition to bring about a greater good. But, I don't think we can/should say that God, strictly speaking, "makes" homosexuality (for, the condition, of its very nature, is a disordered condition, and the one who has it lacks a good proper to his nature, namely, the good of a proper orientation in one's sexual appetite). However, He does, again, permit it for the sake of bringing about a greater good (eg., humility and a resolve to live chastely in the one who experiences it, compassion and charity in those associated with him, etc.)

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

"Jesus Christ is Lord!" (Phil. 2:11)
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  #5  
Old Aug 16, '11, 11:09 am
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fixxer fixxer is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

My late younger brother struggled with this through out his life. I couldn't make him see how it was his cross to bear but he could do it with the help of God. We all have things to overcome in our life. We all carry crosses. Mine was I lost my husband when I was six months pregnant with our first and therefore only child. We were 24 years old. I tried to make him see how lucky we are to have good family that support us. We had each other. I constantly reminded him of this love. I was always honest with him supporting him, just not the sin he was tormented with and wanting. I couldn't make him see that we all struggle with temptation to sin. Why did he think he was so different, why he thought he was being singled out to overcome impossible odds. It was what wore him down and out at the young age of 45.

fixxer
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  #6  
Old Aug 16, '11, 11:49 am
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by searching04 View Post
Recent comments in threads and discussions with family and friends made me want to ask what others think on God and homosexuality.

Personally, I believe it is a choice of a lifestyle stemming from other social factors. However, the agugment comes up that "God created homosexuals, too". I do not and cannot believe that God, making man in His own image, is somehow gay. Ludicrous. One of my daughter's friends who is gay, was crying with her one day and asked, "Do you think I want to be this way?" So why, then, are there homosexuals? Only three things come to mind that even make sense, so here's a poll and as a Catholic, I'd like to know:

Is it is lifestyle choice?
Is it God's curse upon man?
Is it a cross they are to bear in this life as they live a chaste life?
I think you perhaps lack imagination.

Do you ever ask why some people want to have children and can't? Why some are born blind and deaf or without the use of their hands or feet? Also, do you ever notice how many of the great poets and writers were also afflicted with depression or a bipolar behavior pattern? Do you think such a person merely has an eccentric lifestyle choice?

It is my sense that what sort of temptations we are prone to and what sort of works of virtue we find natural very often go hand in hand with our other attributes. I don't think sexual temptations and the ability to enter into a valid and fruitful marriage are different.

The world needs farmers, we'd die without them, but not everyone is cut out to till the soil. Not every plot of land can produce food. That doesn't mean the soil is cursed. It means the soil, if it is to be used to the good of humankind and the glory of God, must have a different destiny than prime farmland has. The standard dream of the family farm is not going to be realized there. As long as no one puts up a farm house and pretends to run a farm that can never be a farm, having that different destiny is profoundly OK. Stony soil can't produce food, but we need quarries and mines, too.

I think the problem is that we do not value and promote the goodness of a single celibate Christian life of virtue and good works. The presumption is that either you are destined to marry and have children or you are destined to be ordained or join a religious order, or else you are cursed in some way. That is not true.

A person who does not have the kind of sexuality and other emotional gifts that loan themselves to a fruitful marriage or community religious life isn't to be automatically thought accursed. Yet our society puts such a high value on being in a genital relationship that even the priesthood is criticised by some Catholics as being an unnatural burden that God could not possibly intend as a vehicle of His sacred action in the world! Doesn't the discipline of priestly celibacy point to the blessedness of a life that can be oriented only so as to please God, and not both God and spouse?

Some people do choose homosexual acts when they are fully capable of normal heterosexual relationships. There are others, however, who choose those acts from a position of not being emotionally capable of a normal heterosexual relationship, but rather because their only sexual orientation is towards homosexual acts. That is where their passions lie. That does not mean that their sexual orientation is the primary aspect of their natures by which they ought to be defined. I think it is this societal habit of self-defining according to sexual orientation that is the problem, not the fact that some of us are not oriented in such a way to be good candidates for marriage.

What about those with a natural orientation to be great leaders? Does it bother you that these tend to also be those who are inclined to take risks for the sake of risk-taking? Are those people not naturally inclined to a host of particular sins? Yet because we value their contributions and disregard the connection between their risk-taking and their leadership ability, we don't think of them as accursed. Rather, we just bewail how often our leaders fall out of hubris. Hmmm. Maybe we ought to give them credit, too, for having a cross to bear that comes with natural gifts that benefit all of us. I think there is good evidence that many homosexuals fall into that category.

It will not kill us to admit that both our crosses and our gifts might often--I would dare say usually!--flow from the same wellspring, nor do we have to be permissive of the sins that we are particularly heir to because of our make-up. On that account, I think it a mistake to single out homosexuals as having a make-up that has it's difficult side and it's beneficial side, nor that they are unique in having passions that make the battle against serious sin difficult. They are not alone in that! Perhaps so that we might need each other and might find a need to bear each other's burdens as well as depend on each other's gifts, this seems to be the way that God has made us all.

Therefore, I think it best to regard homosexuality as one of many human make-ups that carry both gifts and dangers, and to proceed from there, rather than to act as if sins of committed out of lust are the only ones that put a soul in peril or pretending that single life is the worst fate God could visit on us.
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  #7  
Old Aug 16, '11, 12:01 pm
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followingtheway followingtheway is offline
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Arrow Re: God and Homosexuality

I have personally have issues with all three options:

My issue with #1

How could it be a lifestyle choice? Who would choose to be hated, harassed, and bullied? And plus the Catechism even says "they do not choose their condition" (CCC 2358). And plus why call it "a lifestyle"? Would a Heterosexual virgin be in the "Heterosexual lifestyle? Born that way or not, whether they can change or not, I doubt that they just decide who to be attracted to.

My issue with #2

A curse brought on by God? If it's a sin, God didn't bring it into the world


My issue with #3

A cross to bear? Why would God inflict an orientation that brings hatred, harassment, and bullying? Why would enforce chastity on someone? I thought we had free will! And why would God calls the actions sinful but give someone the attractions?
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  #8  
Old Aug 16, '11, 12:05 pm
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Little One0307 Little One0307 is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Em_in_FL View Post
Catechism addresses this pretty clearly...
HTH!



Chastity and homosexuality

2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Good for you, I was going to post this, but glad that you already took care of it.

God bless you.
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  #9  
Old Aug 16, '11, 11:51 pm
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by followingtheway View Post
Why would God inflict an orientation that brings hatred, harassment, and bullying? Why would enforce chastity on someone? I thought we had free will! And why would God calls the actions sinful but give someone the attractions?
Chastity is something everyone has to abide by. Spouses have to be chaste.

Furthermore, we can't object that every time we have a passion or a desire that we want to indulge that either God is to blame and must want us to be unhappy or that God intends us to indulge ourselves.

As for the hatred, harassment, and bullying, that is an indication of the spiritual condition of the haters and the bullies, not the condition of the person being hated, harrassed, or bullied. Christ was hated, harassed and bullied, and not because God "inflicted" the office of priest, prophet, and king upon him. It was because others were jealous of him, and gave into sins of their own. It was their willingness to indulge their own passions and to call them God's will that caused that state of affairs.
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  #10  
Old Aug 17, '11, 5:52 am
katolsk katolsk is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Homosexuality is a biological error and/or the result of childhood sexual abuse.
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  #11  
Old Aug 17, '11, 9:29 am
ScareBear ScareBear is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by followingtheway View Post
I have personally have issues with all three options:

My issue with #1

How could it be a lifestyle choice? Who would choose to be hated, harassed, and bullied? And plus the Catechism even says "they do not choose their condition" (CCC 2358). And plus why call it "a lifestyle"? Would a Heterosexual virgin be in the "Heterosexual lifestyle? Born that way or not, whether they can change or not, I doubt that they just decide who to be attracted to.

My issue with #2

A curse brought on by God? If it's a sin, God didn't bring it into the world


My issue with #3

A cross to bear? Why would God inflict an orientation that brings hatred, harassment, and bullying? Why would enforce chastity on someone? I thought we had free will! And why would God calls the actions sinful but give someone the attractions?
I agree. What a challenging issue. There is a great documentary, Trembling Before G-D about observant Jews who are gay. I encourage anyone interested in this issue to watch it.
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  #12  
Old Aug 18, '11, 9:25 am
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followingtheway followingtheway is offline
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Cool Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
Chastity is something everyone has to abide by. Spouses have to be chaste.
Okay, but I'm talking about celibate-wise chastity. If I want to have sex or not, shouldn't that be part of free will? How come I can choose to burn in Hell fall eternity, but gay person can't choose to live a harassment-free life with marriage and children? How is that just?
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  #13  
Old Aug 18, '11, 10:13 am
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by followingtheway View Post
Okay, but I'm talking about celibate-wise chastity. If I want to have sex or not, shouldn't that be part of free will? How come I can choose to burn in Hell fall eternity, but gay person can't choose to live a harassment-free life with marriage and children? How is that just?
Gays, like all the rest of us, should be able to live without being harrassed. That doesn't mean that any life we choose is equally moral, let alone that any moral life we might choose equally deserves the same nature and extent support from society as any other. I know that homosexuals wish that their sexuality was the same as everyone else's but it's not. No amount of pretending is going to change that.

You seem to be under the impression that you own your body and your life, that you have a right to whatever life you imagine you'd like to have for yourself, and that perhaps you owe God something here or there as a sort of a tax taken from what you own. This is incorrect.

You don't own your own body. You aren't entitled to have some outlet for all of your desires, either. Because of the Fall, each of us has desires that are disordered. Human sexuality, rightly ordered, is oriented towards enduring relationships by which children might be produced and reared. It is not a sin to be homosexual, but the desire to have sexual relations with someone of your own gender is disordered, just as a heterosexual man's desire to have relations with women other than his wife is disordered. Even though both desires occur frequently in our fallen nature, there isn't a way to directly indulge a disordered desire so that it is ordered in keeping with the right nature of human sexuality. We all have to live with that. It is totally just, because we have no right to act outside the order decreed for us by God, from whom we have received everything and to whom we owe everything.

I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create woe;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
Let justice descend, O heavens, like dew from above, like gentle rain let the skies drop it down.
Let the earth open and salvation bud forth; let justice also spring up! I, the LORD, have created this.

Woe to him who contends with his Maker; a potsherd among potsherds of the earth!
Dare the clay say to its modeler, "What are you doing?" or, "What you are making has no hands"?
Woe to him who asks a father, "What are you begetting?" or a woman, "What are you giving birth to?"
Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, his maker:
You question me about my children, or prescribe the work of my hands for me!

It was I who made the earth and created mankind upon it;
It was my hands that stretched out the heavens; I gave the order to all their host....

Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other!
By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word:
To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear,
Saying, "Only in the LORD are just deeds and power.
Before him in shame shall come all who vent their anger against him.
In the LORD shall be the vindication and the glory of all the descendants of Israel."

Is. 45:7-12, 22-25

You also seem to have a deep misunderstanding of marriage. Marriage doesn't exist so that two people can accumulate a particular life for themselves, in which children might or might not be a desired accoutrement. It exists so that the children that naturally result from heterosexual relations can be reared with the full support of a relationship of mutual love between their parents.

A homosexual marriage is not a sexual relationship ordered towards procreation. It can't be. Only by going outside the marriage is procreation possible. Therefore, homosexual "marriage" is a union either closed to children or oriented towards adultery.

But, you say, what about adoption? Adoption is fine, but it does not proceed from a sexual relationship. If a sister and a brother desired to adopt a child together, would this give a pretext for considering that there is no disorder in incest? Should a brother and sister's desire for each other and willingness to live at peace with others lead us to give sanction to incestuous "marriages"? Heaven forbid! Just so, the desire to adopt a child or the willingness to sacrifice for the sake of an orphan does not sanctify homosexual unions. The willingness to sacrifice is good, but the disorder in the union remains.
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  #14  
Old Aug 18, '11, 1:18 pm
1inICXC 1inICXC is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
I think you perhaps lack imagination.

Do you ever ask why some people want to have children and can't? Why some are born blind and deaf or without the use of their hands or feet? Also, do you ever notice how many of the great poets and writers were also afflicted with depression or a bipolar behavior pattern? Do you think such a person merely has an eccentric lifestyle choice?

It is my sense that what sort of temptations we are prone to and what sort of works of virtue we find natural very often go hand in hand with our other attributes. I don't think sexual temptations and the ability to enter into a valid and fruitful marriage are different.

The world needs farmers, we'd die without them, but not everyone is cut out to till the soil. Not every plot of land can produce food. That doesn't mean the soil is cursed. It means the soil, if it is to be used to the good of humankind and the glory of God, must have a different destiny than prime farmland has. The standard dream of the family farm is not going to be realized there. As long as no one puts up a farm house and pretends to run a farm that can never be a farm, having that different destiny is profoundly OK. Stony soil can't produce food, but we need quarries and mines, too.

I think the problem is that we do not value and promote the goodness of a single celibate Christian life of virtue and good works. The presumption is that either you are destined to marry and have children or you are destined to be ordained or join a religious order, or else you are cursed in some way. That is not true.

A person who does not have the kind of sexuality and other emotional gifts that loan themselves to a fruitful marriage or community religious life isn't to be automatically thought accursed. Yet our society puts such a high value on being in a genital relationship that even the priesthood is criticised by some Catholics as being an unnatural burden that God could not possibly intend as a vehicle of His sacred action in the world! Doesn't the discipline of priestly celibacy point to the blessedness of a life that can be oriented only so as to please God, and not both God and spouse?

Some people do choose homosexual acts when they are fully capable of normal heterosexual relationships. There are others, however, who choose those acts from a position of not being emotionally capable of a normal heterosexual relationship, but rather because their only sexual orientation is towards homosexual acts. That is where their passions lie. That does not mean that their sexual orientation is the primary aspect of their natures by which they ought to be defined. I think it is this societal habit of self-defining according to sexual orientation that is the problem, not the fact that some of us are not oriented in such a way to be good candidates for marriage.

What about those with a natural orientation to be great leaders? Does it bother you that these tend to also be those who are inclined to take risks for the sake of risk-taking? Are those people not naturally inclined to a host of particular sins? Yet because we value their contributions and disregard the connection between their risk-taking and their leadership ability, we don't think of them as accursed. Rather, we just bewail how often our leaders fall out of hubris. Hmmm. Maybe we ought to give them credit, too, for having a cross to bear that comes with natural gifts that benefit all of us. I think there is good evidence that many homosexuals fall into that category.

It will not kill us to admit that both our crosses and our gifts might often--I would dare say usually!--flow from the same wellspring, nor do we have to be permissive of the sins that we are particularly heir to because of our make-up. On that account, I think it a mistake to single out homosexuals as having a make-up that has it's difficult side and it's beneficial side, nor that they are unique in having passions that make the battle against serious sin difficult. They are not alone in that! Perhaps so that we might need each other and might find a need to bear each other's burdens as well as depend on each other's gifts, this seems to be the way that God has made us all.

Therefore, I think it best to regard homosexuality as one of many human make-ups that carry both gifts and dangers, and to proceed from there, rather than to act as if sins of committed out of lust are the only ones that put a soul in peril or pretending that single life is the worst fate God could visit on us.
Excellent post! I hope all those struggling with this issue read it attentively!
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  #15  
Old Aug 19, '11, 12:01 pm
Ad_Altare_Dei Ad_Altare_Dei is offline
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Default Re: God and Homosexuality

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
Gays, like all the rest of us, should be able to live without being harrassed. That doesn't mean that any life we choose is equally moral, let alone that any moral life we might choose equally deserves the same nature and extent support from society as any other. I know that homosexuals wish that their sexuality was the same as everyone else's but it's not. No amount of pretending is going to change that.

You seem to be under the impression that you own your body and your life, that you have a right to whatever life you imagine you'd like to have for yourself, and that perhaps you owe God something here or there as a sort of a tax taken from what you own. This is incorrect.

You don't own your own body. You aren't entitled to have some outlet for all of your desires, either. Because of the Fall, each of us has desires that are disordered. Human sexuality, rightly ordered, is oriented towards enduring relationships by which children might be produced and reared. It is not a sin to be homosexual, but the desire to have sexual relations with someone of your own gender is disordered, just as a heterosexual man's desire to have relations with women other than his wife is disordered. Even though both desires occur frequently in our fallen nature, there isn't a way to directly indulge a disordered desire so that it is ordered in keeping with the right nature of human sexuality. We all have to live with that. It is totally just, because we have no right to act outside the order decreed for us by God, from whom we have received everything and to whom we owe everything.

I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create woe;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
Let justice descend, O heavens, like dew from above, like gentle rain let the skies drop it down.
Let the earth open and salvation bud forth; let justice also spring up! I, the LORD, have created this.

Woe to him who contends with his Maker; a potsherd among potsherds of the earth!
Dare the clay say to its modeler, "What are you doing?" or, "What you are making has no hands"?
Woe to him who asks a father, "What are you begetting?" or a woman, "What are you giving birth to?"
Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, his maker:
You question me about my children, or prescribe the work of my hands for me!

It was I who made the earth and created mankind upon it;
It was my hands that stretched out the heavens; I gave the order to all their host....

Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other!
By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word:
To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear,
Saying, "Only in the LORD are just deeds and power.
Before him in shame shall come all who vent their anger against him.
In the LORD shall be the vindication and the glory of all the descendants of Israel."

Is. 45:7-12, 22-25

You also seem to have a deep misunderstanding of marriage. Marriage doesn't exist so that two people can accumulate a particular life for themselves, in which children might or might not be a desired accoutrement. It exists so that the children that naturally result from heterosexual relations can be reared with the full support of a relationship of mutual love between their parents.

A homosexual marriage is not a sexual relationship ordered towards procreation. It can't be. Only by going outside the marriage is procreation possible. Therefore, homosexual "marriage" is a union either closed to children or oriented towards adultery.

But, you say, what about adoption? Adoption is fine, but it does not proceed from a sexual relationship. If a sister and a brother desired to adopt a child together, would this give a pretext for considering that there is no disorder in incest? Should a brother and sister's desire for each other and willingness to live at peace with others lead us to give sanction to incestuous "marriages"? Heaven forbid! Just so, the desire to adopt a child or the willingness to sacrifice for the sake of an orphan does not sanctify homosexual unions. The willingness to sacrifice is good, but the disorder in the union remains.
EasterJoy, I think all of your posts here are excellent! I've never really been able to verbally explain these things in an intelligent way. I'm printing out all of your responses so I can pull them out and refer to them when I talk with people on this subject.
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