Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Aug 22, '11, 2:58 pm
Ana v's Avatar
Ana v Ana v is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2011
Posts: 534
Religion: Catholic
Default Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

This CARM article title "Did Mary Have Other Children?" presents the affirmative.

It quotes from Psalm 69:4-9
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel,Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
(emphasis mine)

Matt Slick (the author of the article) goes on to say:

Quote:
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.

...

"The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning."
__________________
ˇViva Cristo Rey!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Aug 22, '11, 3:52 pm
Pfaffenhoffen Pfaffenhoffen is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: August 4, 2011
Posts: 4,043
Religion: Roman Catholic Church, Latin Rite
Default Re: Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana v View Post
This CARM article title "Did Mary Have Other Children?" presents the affirmative.

It quotes from Psalm 69:4-9
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel,Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
(emphasis mine)

Matt Slick (the author of the article) goes on to say:


Well, people may say whatever they want. There is a movie coming out that say that Jesus was gay. You may whatever you want. So, I do not join into protests for I would be promoting the movie, as controversy feeds the audience. And I have got no patience to refute all the opinions of people. Nor the time.

But it does not mean that what people say, because they say, it is right.

Simply told, I would say that guy is wrong. Why? Because we, Catholics are right. Period. That is my way of dealing with all the questioning.

And if we are wrong. It is a bet. We will see one day, after death who is right and who is wrong.

Now, the arguments presented are very poor. He does not seem to be able to realize how was education 2000 years ago. Even today. I have a black friends from Africa who talks about his cousins as brothers. Actually, no one was educated, he says, by their parents. It was the whole village that took care of every kid. I know another female friend of mine who was educated in Spain in a village. She entered every house as it was hers and had lunch and dinner at whatever place she deemed fit. All the kids were the same.

And we have a good proof of it when Joseph and Mary were coming from Jerusalem, it took them, believe me, they were in the same group, it took them 1 1/2 days to discover that Jesus was not with the group. Can you imagine this situation with today's society?

The man did not see that?

And there is Tradition. The Church for 2000 years interpreted that way. I am not going to believe a recent arrival who just discovers I do not know what.

Anyhow, is this worth the fight? Isnt it more important to feed the Somalian People, to stop the wars, to make peace, to keep the environment than to try to discover things in the midst of fog!

If God wanted, I would not care less if Mary was or was not a Virgin, had one or many children. I do not know why he makes such a fuss of this Catholic Position.

The question is that God wanted it Mary to be Our Beloved Virgin Mother of the Son of God and, sorry, Matt Slick, you are no God. In 1000 years You and I will be forgotten but not the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Last edited by Pfaffenhoffen; Aug 22, '11 at 4:08 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Aug 22, '11, 4:23 pm
Verbum Verbum is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Posts: 2,147
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

Hi Ana,

Well the guy is right in a way. Since it is dogma that Mary was a virgin before, during and after giving birth, then any passage that appears to say othewise must be interpreted in a way tha respects that doctrine. One explanation is that it refers to members of the extended family, like cousins. Another is that Joseph brought children to the marriage from another marriage.

In this particular case, one thing to note is the Hebrew usage of parallelism in poetry.

Examples of this might be :

1. I called to the Lord, I raised my voice to my Savior

2. He raised sheep on his father's land, he was a shepherd in Israel.

In these sentences, you repeat the same thing wilth different words.

In the psalm you talk about, "brothers" is parallel with "mother's sons." Since brothers can mean practically any member of the extended family, mother's sons would not mean anything else.

Verbum
__________________
In principio erat Verbum
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Aug 23, '11, 12:20 pm
promethius's Avatar
promethius promethius is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Posts: 2,471
Religion: Catholic of the Latin Rite
Default Re: Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana v View Post
This CARM article title "Did Mary Have Other Children?" presents the affirmative.

It quotes from Psalm 69:4-9
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel,Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
(emphasis mine)

Matt Slick (the author of the article) goes on to say:
Ask him what he thinks the folly of Jesus and His wrongs were.

Psalms are parallel in meaning. Some of them are prophetic, but they ALSO refer to current events in the time of the various authors. It takes proper discernment, daresay, magisterial discernment, to sort out what is Messianic prophecy and what is historical recounting of the author about themselves.
__________________
For those of you from the old greenspun forum ~paul h
Tiber Swim Team
class of 1990
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Aug 23, '11, 3:53 pm
Karen1960's Avatar
Karen1960 Karen1960 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2009
Posts: 278
Default Re: Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana v View Post
This CARM article title "Did Mary Have Other Children?" presents the affirmative.

It quotes from Psalm 69:4-9
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel,Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
(emphasis mine)

Matt Slick (the author of the article) goes on to say:
What Matt Slick and others at CARM do is take a sentence out of context and build the "Religion of CARM" by it

If one reads and discerns this Psalm in full context and understanding In John, Scriptures clearly state that Jesus gave His Mother to us and us to His Mother, making us His Brothers.

One can not cherry pick the Bible and find what suits their beliefs. The entire Scripture must be considered. If one has no understanding of the Gospel of John, then this particular Psalm can mean anything you wish.
__________________
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst John 6:35
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Aug 23, '11, 4:04 pm
Legal Eagle Legal Eagle is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2007
Posts: 384
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana v View Post
This CARM article title "Did Mary Have Other Children?" presents the affirmative.

It quotes from Psalm 69:4-9
"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel,Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
(emphasis mine)

Matt Slick (the author of the article) goes on to say:
Some Psalms are actually hymns or sacred poetry expressing the interior life of the author. Who says the author is speaking in the voice of Jesus at all?

Peace,
__________________

Tiber Swim Team '03

When someone steals another's clothes, we call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not?

Basil the Great
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Aug 23, '11, 8:10 pm
Pete Holter Pete Holter is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Posts: 1,013
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

Greetings in the LORD!

Basing his understanding on the spiritual reality of Christ being wed to His Church, Augustine introduces us to the idea that the “Synagogue” is the mother of Christ:
“The whole narrative of Genesis, in the most minute details, is a prophecy of Christ and of the Church with reference either to the good Christians or to the bad. There is a significance in the words of the apostle when he calls Adam ‘the figure of Him that was to come;’ and when he says, ‘A man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery; but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.’ This points most obviously to the way in which Christ left His Father; for ‘though He was in the form of God, and thought it not robbery to be equal with God, He emptied Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant.’ And so, too, He left His mother, the synagogue of the Jews which cleaved to the carnality of the Old Testament, and was united to the Church His holy bride, that in the peace of the New Testament they two might be one flesh” (Against Faustus, Bk. 12, Ch. 8).
Here also is his typological exposition based on the dual relations that Abraham and Sarah had with one another, being at the same time both husband and wife, and brother and sister:
“The holy Church, too is in secret the spouse of the Lord Jesus Christ. For it is secretly, and in the hidden depths of the Spirit, that the soul of man is joined to the word of God, so that they two are one flesh; of which the apostle speaks as a great mystery in marriage, as referring to Christ and the Church. […] Again, when it is said that the Church is the sister of Christ, not by the mother but by the father, we learn the excellence of the relation, which is not of the temporary nature of earthly descent, but of divine grace, which is everlasting. By this grace we shall no longer be a race of mortals when we receive power to be called and to become sons of God. This grace we obtain not from the synagogue, which is the mother of Christ after the flesh, but from God the Father” (Against Faustus, Bk. 22, Ch. 38, 39).
With these thoughts in mind, we can appreciate why Augustine sees the “mother” in Psalm 69 as referring to the “Synagogue”: “To the sons of the Synagogue He became a stranger” (Exposition on Psalm 69, 13).

We see in the “mother” of Psalm 69 something similar to what some Protestants see in the “woman” of Revelation 12. We see Mary in Revelation 12, they see her in Psalm 69; we don’t see Mary in Psalm 69, and they don’t see her in Revelation 12; we cling to a group identity for the mother in Psalm 69, they cling to a group identity for the woman in Revelation 12. We just have to pray for the mercy of God to help these Protestants swap the realities that God intends to lead us to through these divine images.

Praise the mercy of Christ for Saint Augustine!

Love,
Pete

Help John Bugay
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Aug 24, '11, 3:22 am
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2004
Posts: 3,269
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

The psalm is only a refutation of the dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity if the words "my brothers" and "my mother's sons" are understood in the narrowest possible sense but there are other wider possible senses of the words which in no way refute the dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity. In a wider possible sense, the words "my mother's sons" refer to all the Jews, the children of Sarah: "Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you." (Isaiah 51:2) And the fact that Jesus Christ was, for the most part, estranged from and an alien to his fellow Jews, suggests that this is the true sense of the psalm. In the widest possible sense, the words "my mother's sons" refer to all mankind, the children of Eve: "the mother of all living." (Genesis 3:20)

In support of the dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity, there is another Messianic prophecy, Zechariah 12:10 (cited in John 19:37), that suggests the Messiah was an only child:
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Aug 24, '11, 5:15 pm
WesleyF's Avatar
WesleyF WesleyF is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2008
Posts: 1,638
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Does Messianic prophecy in Psalm refute dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by promethius View Post
Ask him what he thinks the folly of Jesus and His wrongs were.
Exactly. I had made this same point before in an email to one such website which used this Psalm to say that Mary wasn't a perpetual virgin. I got no reply from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by promethius View Post
Psalms are parallel in meaning. Some of them are prophetic, but they ALSO refer to current events in the time of the various authors. It takes proper discernment, daresay, magisterial discernment, to sort out what is Messianic prophecy and what is historical recounting of the author about themselves.
That's right. And also, it should be noted that the verse says that the disciples remembered that it was written - "zeal for your house will consume me." It does not say that the disciples remembered that it was written of him - "zeal for your house will consume me." If that were the case, then the whole Psalm could be applied to Jesus. As it stands, the whole Psalm cannot be applied to Jesus.
__________________
Wes
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Tags
brothers, cousins, jesus, mary, perpetual virginity

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8448Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: jerrythetrucker
5139CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: hopeful01
4423Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3863SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3731Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3313Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
3279Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3222Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3107For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 5:35 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.