Growing number of Catholics push for return to Latin Mass

[Gardenman]

I, too, wish we could return to the Latin Mass or at least have it as an option in every parish.
The OF has just gotten to be ridiculous in SOME areas with too many liturgical abuses.

[Contra Mundum]

Originally Posted by Thomas Redd

I think that most of the "return to the Latin Mass movement" is an internet phenomonen. I know very few people who want to go back to the terrible old days when people went to mass is a foreign language, the priest mumbled the words and hurried through the rite as quickly as possible, while everyone prayed the rosary. There was no sacred feeling about the mass. If there was it was a false sacredness. That is, people confusing incomprehension for mystery. The first time I heard mass in my own sacred language (english), it was as if the heavens opened and God was speaking directly to me. Go to a mass in Latin to satisfy your courosity, but go to mass in your own language to pray from the heart.

Gosh, what can be said about this. I'm so sorry you feel this way. I have to say that is is not good to pass such judgement about people not being able to worship in a foreign language or mistaking incomprehension for mystery. That is condescending, people are more intelligent than that.

[AlanFromWichita]

I, too, remember have Missals with Latin on the left and English on the right.

They have a Latin Mass in our diocese, but it's at the same time as 8 AM Mass at our own parish where I have played the music (organ and/or piano) for about 25 years, so I don't go.

The main reason I wanted to go was for history's sake and to hear a priest I like. I have no desire to make a regular practice of it. As far as I'm concerned, if I can't even hear what's going on, much less participate in the prayers, then there isn't much reason for me to be there on a regular basis. Latin and English are both human-made languages, neither of which Jesus spoke, if I am correct. I don't see either the language or the non-participation as being any sort of advantages. If it fulfills an obligation, then I guess I'll take it -- but if I had my "druthers" I'll go in the vernacular. Thank you, Vatican II.

Just because something is old doesn't mean it's better. My father-in-law used to tell of serving at the Latin Mass when he was young, and if the priest was the least bit annoyed by even the slightest of mistakes, he hit them on the backs of the hands with a stick. Not much love and reverence in that, I say.

Alan

[fred conty]

I believe the language is of less importance to piety.

[Contra Mundum]

Originally Posted by fred conty

I believe the language is of less importance to piety.

Completely agree. The EF mass is so much more than a question of language. Piety all the way, From the meaningful Introit based on a Biblical text, to the reading of the 2nd Gospel. Shame these things have been left out of the reformed liturgy. I'm still waiting for someone to give me a good explanation of what exactly we have gained by that move.

[AlanFromWichita]

Originally Posted by Contra Mundum

Completely agree. The EF mass is so much more than a question of language. Piety all the way, From the meaningful Introit based on a Biblical text, to the reading of the 2nd Gospel. Shame these things have been left out of the reformed liturgy. I'm still waiting for someone to give me a good explanation of what exactly we have gained by that move.

What I have gained by that move, is to be in conformance with the norms taught and recommended by my representatives to the Church as I was growing up, my parish priests.

How does one measure "Piety?" Is it a certain conformance to an outward performance standard, such as walking in a sufficiently rigid way or having a somber look on your face?

OK, here's one I'll throw out just for you. When I had First Communion, the nuns who were our school teachers and sacrament trainers taught us to keep our heads perfectly aligned behind one another, so when you were in line to get Communion you had to walk a certain way that kept your head from bobbing left and right with each step.

And yet? On the few occasions I actually stand in line for Communion, (as musician I normally get 'special' treatment ) the heads in front of me are going back and forth like Weebles wobble but they don't fall down. Or how about, they could be the parts in a loom, weaving in and out. This drives me nuts, much less seems "pious."

Tell me that at a TLM they keep their heads aligned behind each other while in line for Communion, and I might just have to trade Masses with somebody one week and go check it out.

Alan

[Contra Mundum]

Originally Posted by AlanFromWichita

OK, here's one I'll throw out just for you. When I had First Communion, the nuns who were our school teachers and sacrament trainers taught us to keep our heads perfectly aligned behind one another, so when you were in line to get Communion you had to walk a certain way that kept your head from bobbing left and right with each step.

And yet? On the few occasions I actually stand in line for Communion, (as musician I normally get 'special' treatment ) the heads in front of me are going back and forth like Weebles wobble but they don't fall down. Or how about, they could be the parts in a loom, weaving in and out. This drives me nuts, much less seems "pious."

Tell me that at a TLM they keep their heads aligned behind each other while in line for Communion, and I might just have to trade Masses with somebody one week and go check it out.

Alan

That is funny By all means, please do go and check it out. We might not follow a military regime like you had to endure with the nuns, but the communion line is quite disciplined. Heads bowed in prayer and all that.

[maryjk]

Originally Posted by Rence

While I don't like the latin mass, I wish it were available in every parish so that those who want to attend it can. Likewise, I hope there is always a mass in English for me to attend --- because I really don't like the latin mass.

I am with you. I have no desire to attend the EF.

It would be nice if it was available so that anyone that wanted to attend the EF was able to attend. But I have no interest.

[jasonjessica09]

Originally Posted by Gift from God

The Latin Mass will never make a comeback. People like myself have no interest in knowing the Latin language and would rather understand what is being said in the church. Wouldn't it be more reverent if we can actually understand the homily?

You are so uninformed, the readings and the homily are in English. Also there are guide books at most places that really help you follow along. Also because of the silence, I read the prayers to myself in English as the Priest speaks or whispers it in Latin. I feel as I am really participating in the liturgy. The OF does not do that for me.

[Outspoken]

I'm all for bringing back the Latin Mass. I loved it when I was growing up. There's a church about 90 minutes away that has it, but that's a bit of a long drive. If there was one closer, I wouldn't hesitate to go. I'd also love to see the Communion rails come back, and the Tabernacle being placed front & center on the altar, where it belongs (not off to the side), as well.

Too many Priests/Bishops go way too far to the extremes when it comes to making changes to the liturgy. Some of them make it seem more like a 'tent revival' or a Broadway production than a Catholic Mass. It's not supposed to be something that we do for entertainment. The most important thing is the Eucharist, but in some churches I've been to, that just seems like an afterthought that people participate in just because everyone else does. I doubt many of them even believe in the Real Presence. If they did, they wouldn't be going to Mass wearing shorts, a tank top and flip-flops.

[jen fla]

Originally Posted by mommylotus1011

My husband and I attended a Latin Mass a few years back and it was wonderful. Definitely more reverent than the English ones we'd been going to. Our local priest hurries through Mass as fast as he can and everyone rushes out. I don't think it matters what language the Mass is in, some parishes just aren't worried as much about their faith and worship as others. Also, many of the Masses we went to in college were full of craziness. The RCIA teacher at the college parish talked about how praying to flowers was the same as praying to God and they had spiritual dancing and they had a band that was so loud and distracting. I was raised Protestant and I had a desire to join Catholicism not only because their teachings made more sense, but because their Mass seemed so much more reverent and full of worship than the church services I grew up with. But most of the Masses I have attended seem to have been trying to get closer and closer to resembling their Protestant brothers and sisters. It takes away from the meaning of the Mass everything that makes it special and feel like true worship. Any Mass, when done right, can be wonderful and moving. But Latin Mass is unique. There's nothing boring about it. Those who may have drifted in thought or decided to pray the Rosary rather than pay attention to what was happening in the Mass have only themselves to blame, not the Mass itself. I didn't need to understand everything to feel close to God and inspired. Though this movement does make me want to learn Latin. Which can only be a plus, right? I think the return of the Latin Mass is a desire of the younger generations mostly, the ones who didn't get to grow up with it. Who knows, maybe they will appreciate it more since it's new to them rather than just some boring same old Mass said in a strange language.

i too agree with this and especially the part i bolded. i am at a point where the modern music is almost too painful to bear. then i spend a good amount of time feeling guilty wondering why i can't be a better person in hearing the beauty of people expressing their love of God in this particular style, but then that singing starts up again with more horrible music and i sit there praying, "please, please, please bring back the Gregorian chants... i can't take this!"...

and while i'm on a rant, parishes need money and i see so many bright lights on when beautiful sunlight is pouring through the windows. why can't we shut those lights off and save a bundle on utilities? i'd be in heaven in an old CC, with Gregorian chants, lit only with candles where no one holds hands during the Our Father.

anyway i do pray for the day that every parish offers the Latin Mass and not just at 7 or 8 am.

i know all Masses are beautiful and the most important thing is receiving the Eucharist, but this is just breath taking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4j36...eature=related

[fred conty]

"Mass seemed so much more reverent" said Mommylotus.
Good point, reverent, pious, holy.
This should be paramount in every one on the alter.
I believe woman would help if they wore clothing that was plain and unrevealing, with as
little makeup as possible, so they do not draw attention to themselves but to God.
Men would be showing respect if they wore their Sunday best, not shorts or bluejeans.
Reverent and respectful drawing no attention to themselves.

Going to communion with folded hands and praying and recalling the real Jesus present.
Music is another area which should be reverent.
Singing with our hearts that reflects a deep love as well as faith.
Using songs not to complicated for the people to sing.
Everything should be aimed at a giving glory to God as angels on Christmas.
Remembering, that depending on this greatest of all events, goes the whole world.

[Thomas Redd]

I would like to answer your claim that I am passing judgement directly on people:

1) I am speaking out of defense. The attack on the vernacular mass is building to a fevered pitch among many people. How many websites are out there and how many posts on even this website go around claiming things like only the Latin Mass is valid, only the Latin mass has a sense of reverence, only the latin mass has a vertical dimension, only the music in the Latin mass is truly beautiful. If anyone is being judgmental it is the "innovationalists" who want to bring back the innovation of having mass in an elitist language rather the language of the people. I don't like to use the word "traditionalists" because real traditionalists would want to have mass in the language of the people. That is the real tradition of the church. Latin wasn't even the original language of the Roman rite. Greek was the language of the lower class people. That's why we still have the Kyrie in Greek. Latin was only adopted later when is passed into common usage. Once Latin stopped being a vernacular language, it took a lot of oppression to impose Latin on the people. Who wouldn't want to have mass in their own language which is just as sacred as Latin?

2) I see so many people claim that they go to disrespectful english masses and the Latin mass is so reverant. Where are these wild english masses? In my 40 years of going to english masses, I have never seen one that was disrepectful. Every priest I have seen has tried to be reverent and speak the words of Christ in a sacred way and in a way that Christ taught. Christ certainly never taught us to do anything so cut off from our lives and hearts as mass with the priest having his back to the people and to God too for that matter ("when two or more of you are gathered in my name, I am with you"). He never taught us to pray with words that we do not understand but to pray from the heart ("In your prayers, do not babble like the pagans do"). How does one pray from the heart in words you do not understand? That is a concept I have never been able to wrap my brain around. Christ taught us to both eat His Body and drink His Blood. In the Tridentine mass, do they let you go to communion under both species like Jesus wanted us to? The early Church fathers and all other Catholic Church rites understood the wonderful meaning of receiving both Jesus' Body and Blood, but the Roman Rite fell away from this incredible practice. The Holy Spirit guided the Church to bring back this fullest of signs. Are we to throw this holy experience away now?

3) As far as Latin mass being more reverent, I have experienced only the opposite. In my youth, I served hundreds of Latin masses with a number of priests. Without fail they were said without feeling or understanding, They were mumbled and hurried. One pastor we had could say a Latin mass in 12 minutes flat. Did it really make a difference? No one would have understood him anyway if he spoke slower.

4) This raises the question "Are Latin masses more reverent now?" I have gone to a few Tridentine masses. I can only say that for me they were more about "show" than prayerfulness. I felt they were in your face "holier than thou." I saw no real reverence. Again, it is fine if that is what you want. Please don't try to impose it on the rest of us as some kind of wonderful model.

5) I would like to talk about something now that is rarely noted but really should be discussed, the bitter fruits of the Latin mass in the history of the Church and the oppression it took to impose the Latin mass on the people. My family is from Slovakia. We learned early about Sts. Cyril and Methodius who brought Christianity to the Slavic peoples . Though Cyril and Methodius were from Constantinople, they went to Rome and received the personal approval of their mission by the pope. The pope reviewed their translations of both the bible and the Roman Rite into the Slavic language. Cyril and Methodius were very successful because the new converts could go to mass in their own language. I might stress that this was the Roman rite not the Byzantine rite. However, they were fought tooth and nail by other less successful missionaries who were saying the Roman rite in Latin. These missionaries were aligned with Germanic rulers who wanted to impose their Latin mass as a political tool. Cyril and Methodius went back to Rome and received once again, the blessing of the pope for using the Slavic translation of the Roman Rite. Methodius was even made archbishop. However, when he went back he was put in jail for two years. The pope tried many times to get Methodius released. Finally, Methodius was released but died soon after. His priests were driven out of the area. They went out and converted the Bulgars, the Ukrainians, the Russians. But get this, Methodius' followers no longer used the Roman rite but the Byzantine Rite. At the great schism of 1054, the countries they had converted stayed with the patriarch of Constantinople and not the pope. How different would have been the history of the church and the world if these countries especially Russia would have stayed with the western church? But for the imposition of Latin on the Slavs, Russia may have remained part of the Catholic Church. I often think that perhaps the Protestant reformation may not have happened or may not have been so severe if the vernacular would have been in common usage for mass. After all, mass in the language of the people and communion under both species were two of the main selling points that the protestant leaders used. These reasonable reforms caught a lot of people's attention which allowed the protestant leader to push through other not so good teachings.

Thanks "Contra Mundum, I was not attacking anyone personally, but various views have to be aired so that the truth comes out.

[cardonius]

I am a person who intends to join the Catholic Church.

Although I have only been to a few masses, and have never been to a Latin Mass, I could definitely understand the appeal of the Latin Mass.

I think I might prefer the Latin Mass. I love Latin and I love respecting ancient traditions. I'm very old fashioned in some ways. Returning the way mass was said for hundreds of years all across the world sounds great to me.

I think it would be a great idea if every priest learned to do the Latin Mass. At my local parish and at many others, we have an English mass and a Spanish mass. It seems like it makes more sense to me to have a mass in the Extraordinary form, the way it was done for hundreds of years.

[Thomas Redd]

Hi Cardonius
May God bless you as you enter the church. May God always be with you and keep you.
As someone with a inclination for history, I would like to recommend that you spend a few evenings reading on the internet the mass canons for all the liturgies of the church. The church has I think about 12 different rites besides the Roman rite. They are absolutely beautiful and most are very ancient. Some date very close to Apostlic times. I think it is the Alexandrian rite which traces itself to St. Mark. I grew up in the Roman Rite but have relatives who are Byzantine rite, so I received an early education in what the word "Catholic" really meant. I even got to go to communion under both species before it was reintroduced into the Roman Rite. The western Church also has other rites still in use. Some of these are the Mozarabic in Spain and the Ambrosian rite in Milan. England had it own rite, the Sarum (Latin for Salisbury) Rite which has now passed out of useage but some people are advocating to bring it back because of its historical value to the English people. This would be equivalent to what happened with the Tridentine mass. Of course there were other Roman Rite liturgies before the Tridentine Latin mass. I think it would be great to allow these other ancient Roman Rite liturgies, in translation of course so their true beauty could be understood. I think this would also defuse the problem that the church is having with many people who believe that only the Latin Tridentine mass is valid or at least better than the Novus ordo mass. This is a real problem. I know a number of people who believe this along with other things such as the Second Vatican Council was an invalid council. By looking at the whole liturgical history of the church and not just a small snippet in time, such as the 16th century when the Tridentine Latin mass was formalized, we can all understand better the incredible "catholicity and universality" of our church. I also think, the church should encourage mass sharing across various rites. Wouldn't be great to have a Coptic (Egyptian) priest or a Syrian priest say mass in their ancient rite once in a while at our local Roman Rite church. It would bring us all so much closer as a church. Of course language wouldn't be a problem because most other rites have always used the local vernacular. Again, God bless.