Do the Church Father's say All graces comes through Mary?

[Tantum ergo]

Originally Posted by jmj1984

You're dealing with a strawman, the issue is not whether or not the graces are Gods (we all know Graces come from God) but whether there is a barrier between us and Christ, namely Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces.

YOURS is the strawman.

If Mary is a barrier between us and Christ as mediatrix of all graces, then she was a barrier between us and Christ when she conceived and gave birth to Him as well.

If she wasn't then, she isn't now.

[TrueLight]

Originally Posted by justtryin

Think mystically about it. Meditate on it. You will see that Grace Itself, Christ, The Source of all Grace, entered the world through Mary. This is why He Wills it to be thus.

I guess that is what I will have to do because I don't see it now. It might take years.

[jmj1984]

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

No, you're supposed to come up with the Church teaching that supports YOUR assertion. You asserted first.

If you can't answer the question of the thread then why post in it?

[Tantum ergo]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

I know your frustrated, but you really should refrain from calling people stupid.

You're wrong in calling me frustrated, and I call no one stupid.

"IF" means I am making a hypothetical. . .IF this is the case, THEN something else --not making a 'judgment' on a given person.

[jmj1984]

Originally Posted by TuAutem

I've tried to come at this in multiple threads, with multiple different arguments, to show that this is not only true, but really not even controversial, but without apparent success.

The Church Fathers do say, and I can provide references/arguments if necessary, that Mary is co-redemptrix ('Second Eve'), ever-Virgin, assumed into heaven, and queen of all saints and angels.

The question here is about Mediatrix of all graces, though: justtryin gives some good quotes. But the key thing, to free you from all doubt, or uncertainty, is to understand the WHAT and the WHY. So I will offer here a more philosophical approach, which I hope is at least faithful to the Fathers' thinking, even if I do not quote them:

Are you familiar with the term theosis, or deification, and its importance in theology as the goal of Christian life? Of what heaven, truly, is? It is being with God, contemplating God, in the presence of God. If this is the Christian destination, then the saints are those that have arrived at it. And of all the saints, Mary is the most accomplished (as you will find abundant patristic witness).

Therefore, Mary beholds God in heaven more closely and more immediately than any creature, man or angel. What are the implications of this?

Well, I would argue, if we understand the concept of theosis, then, as theosis progresses, our wills become more perfectly attuned to the divine will. The ultimate goal of this, necessarily, is then that these wills become one. Disagreement with God's will is sin, and there is no sin in heaven. If anyone has achieved this goal of sainthood, Mary has, since she is first among the saints. And if she has achieved it, then by definition, the consequence is that what God wills, Mary wills, and what God does not will, Mary does not will.

This means that anything God wishes to bestow a grace for, Mary wishes to pray for. That is what a perfect creature in heaven's will should be, by definition. And that is all that we are saying when we say that all graces come through Mary. Because Mary wants what God wants, anything God wants, Mary wants.

Therefore, Mary's intercession is present for all graces. All graces do not come from Mary--they come from God. But since her will is fully obedient to God's, all graces coming from God are also graces that she desires--otherwise her adherence to God would be less than perfect, which neither the Church nor the Fathers would admit.

And, because she is in heaven, what she desires, is the same thing as what she intercedes for. Thus:

* God dispenses graces as He wills
* Whatever God does will, Mary wills, because she has achieved Theosis beyond any other creature
* Therefore, Mary's intercession to God (=her prayer, for those in heaven express desire through constant prayer), corresponds exactly to God's chosen graces
* Therefore, all graces come through Mary--not because she is in any way their originator, but because her will is perfectly conformed to God, therefore she by her very nature must intercede for all graces that God is disposed to grant, and must not intercede for any grace that God would not grant.

To get back to my initial frustration that this is not better understood, I am bothered by this because, given the logic above, saying that all graces do not come through Mary is like saying that, in heaven, it would be possible not to agree with everything God does. Which, for me, goes against the very definition of heaven.

To my thinking, saying that Mary is mediatrix of all graces does not place an intermediary between me and Christ--rather, saying that she is not places an insurmountable barrier between me and Christ: if Christ's own mother cannot, in heavenly perfection, fully accord her will to God's, what hope do I, a gentile 2000 years removed, possibly have to reconcile myself to the Father?

Thats given me a lot to think about but I don't see how any of that leads us to conclude that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces, that all graces come through her. You could say that she always wishes for the same graces God provides, but in no way does that mean the graces come through her.

[Tantum ergo]

Originally Posted by jmj1984

If you can't answer the question of the thread then why post in it?

I have been endeavoring to address the mistaken assumptions in order to help. Perhaps it will.

[At Trent]

We need a posse

[TrueLight]

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

You're wrong in calling me frustrated, and I call no one stupid.

"IF" means I am making a hypothetical. . .IF this is the case, THEN something else --not making a 'judgment' on a given person.

Considering that two of us are questioning the non De Fide teaching of all graces come through Mary, I can't imagine who else that hypothetical refers to.

I don't think there is room for such language in this thread.

[At Trent]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Considering that two of us are questioning the non De Fide teaching of all graces come through Mary, I can't imagine who else that hypothetical refers to.

I don't think there is room for such language in this thread.

yea, the only two on the planet

[justtryin]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Mary is the mother of salvation, of course because Jesus is our salvation.

The above quote from you is the EXACT SPOT where you need to start. Empty everything you have been reading about this from the front of your mind. None of that matters.

Start at your quote MARY IS THE MOTHER OF SALVATION.

What is the wealth of knowledge hidden in those six words?

Think outside of time and space for they cannot hold the wealth of knowledge contained in those six simple words.

Contemplate, ponder, and meditate on those six words. You will see all the truth in those words.

[Tantum ergo]

Originally Posted by jmj1984

Thats given me a lot to think about but I don't see how any of that leads us to conclude that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces, that all graces come through her. You could say that she always wishes for the same graces God provides, but in no way does that mean the graces come through her.

Why not?

Graces come from God, and they come to us. . .and we can take those graces through ourselves and then they come to others through us. . .

How is Mary a barrier? If she is, then aren't WE barriers to others who receive God's graces through us instead of 'directly?"

[jmj1984]

I'm going to be honest the amount of sins against charity and humulity that are being commited who strive so hard to venerate and imitate Mary is staggering, do you honestly think you're going to persuade or help anyone with that attitude?

[Tantum ergo]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Considering that two of us are questioning the non De Fide teaching of all graces come through Mary, I can't imagine who else that hypothetical refers to.

I don't think there is room for such language in this thread.

I was not addressing you personally but making a conditional IF. . .then statement.

[Tantum ergo]

Originally Posted by jmj1984

I'm going to be honest the amount of sins against charity and humulity that are being commited who strive so hard to venerate and imitate Mary is staggering, do you honestly think you're going to persuade or help anyone with that attitude?

We certainly all fall short of perfection but is it any more charitable or humble to accuse people of sin when you cannot know their hearts?

[Planty Pall]

Assuredly the doctrine is not de fide. Holy Mother Church does not yet insist that all of the faithful hold to this doctrine so how can I at this time?

To jmj and true light:

All blessings be yours. Our Lady knows your concerns and misgivings.

If you could accept the doctrine if it were definitively proclaimed by the Church, that seems adequate to me.

But it wouldn't seem right if you would take active opposition to it. (I do not say you have. You seem to be merely questioning. I am glad jmj, to see you accept the "acorn principle". That's good. We will have to differ for now on whether this doctrine qualifies.)

If at this time you continue to deny the doctrine while having proper respect for all the popes, saints, and doctors of the Church who have taught it, that seems adequate to me. Nobody changes their mind in a moment. If you would prayerfully ponder what has been presented, I could not expect much better result from an internet discussion.

PP