Mortifications of Early Saints - Too Extreme?

[TrueLight]

Today is St Rose of Lima's feast day.

For those who don't know much about her, I thought I'd post a little snippet from Wikipedia.

As a young girl--in emulation of Saint Catherine of Siena--she began to fast three times a week and performed severe penances in secret. When she was admired for her beauty, Rose cut off her hair, against the objections of her friends and her family, and disfigured her face with pepper and lye. She was very upset that she was so beautiful, and hurt herself to deter the suitors beginning to take notice of her. Despite the censure of her parents, she spent many hours contemplating the Blessed Sacrament, which she received daily. She was determined to take a vow of virginity, in opposition to her parents, who wished her to marry. Finally, out of frustration, her father gave her a room to herself in the family home.

St Catherine of Sienna and Blessed Angela of Foligno were known to drink pus from the sores of the sick.

Angela of Foligno is reported to have said it was as "sweet as the Eucharist", and also to have eaten the scabs and lice from those same patients, though precious little else.[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_mirabilis

These saints were holy and pious people who strove for a closer walk with God every day even at the expense of themselves. In fact many of them died young due to the harsh conditions they subjected themselves to. It is fitting that they be in heaven.

However, does the Church address some of these practices which were a bit..shall we say, extreme? What is the Church's view?

In the case of the ones who did extreme fasting and drank pus, is it possible some of them suffered from mental illness?

What can we learn to do and not do from these practices of the Saints?

[jmj1984]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Today is St Rose of Lima's feast day.

For those who don't know much about her, I thought I'd post a little snippet from Wikipedia.




St Catherine of Sienna and Blessed Angela of Foligno were known to drink pus from the sores of the sick.



These saints were holy and pious people who strove for a closer walk with God every day even at the expense of themselves. In fact many of them died young due to the harsh conditions they subjected themselves to. It is fitting that they be in heaven.

However, does the Church address some of these practices which were a bit..shall we say, extreme? What is the Church's view?

In the case of the ones who did extreme fasting and drank pus, is it possible some of them suffered from mental illness?

What can we learn to do and not do from these practices of the Saints?

Wait what?! Saints having mental illness because they do extreme things? No, its not possible they were mentally ill, otherwise they wouldn't have been saints they'd have been crazy. Some people are called to greater degrees of holiness than others and so practice mortifications that we would consider extreme or even crazy but ultimately that just says more about their love of God and the extraordinary graces he gave them on one side and our utterly pathetic love of God (when compared to theirs) on the other.

Contemplating the possbility that they were mentally ill however is a big no no.

[TrueLight]

Originally Posted by jmj1984

Wait what?! Saints having mental illness because they do extreme things? No, its not possible they were mentally ill, otherwise they wouldn't have been saints they'd have been crazy. Some people are called to greater degrees of holiness than others and so practice mortifications that we would consider extreme or even crazy but ultimately that just says more about their love of God and the extraordinary graces he gave them on one side and our utterly pathetic love of God (when compared to theirs) on the other.

Contemplating the possibility that they were mentally ill however is a big no no.

I hope I am in no means being disrespectful. I am only trying to understand.

Some of these behaviors, if done today, might be seen as mental illness.

Is physical illness possible for a holy person? Of course.

Is mental illness possible for a holy person? Why not? It is like some Christians today hide mental illness because they feel it means they are doing something wrong.

Can starving yourself be an indication of an eating disorder?

Why do spiritual directors counsel against such extreme mortification these days?

Is there a physical danger? Is there a mental danger?

[Rence]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

I hope I am in no means being disrespectful. I am only trying to understand. Some of these behaviors, if done today, might be seen as mental illness. Is physical illness possible for a holy person? Of course.
Is mental illness possible for a holy person? Why not? It is like some Christians today hide mental illness because they feel it means they are doing something wrong.
Can starving yourself be an indication of an eating disorder?
Why do spiritual directors counsel against such extreme mortification these days?
Is there a physical danger? Is there a mental danger?

I don't mean to be disrespectful either, but I would think that someone sucking the pus out of sores, or eating scabs and lice would be mentally ill as well. It's something that I don't understand as being merely mortification. I don't know what the Church's position is on these kinds of mortification. I'm of the mindset that one's body is a temple, and should be treated thus. So while some mortification (such as fasting) can be 'beneficial' spiritually, I don't understand what benefit actually starving one's self would be. To me, and I realize this is just my opinion, these kinds of mortifications go overboard, and MOHO, would be an abuse to the body...one that would warrant some counseling to see if there's something deeper and more disturbing going on.

What does the Church teach about this? What does the CCC or Canon say? Are there encyclicals on this subject? Because I had no idea someone would do these things in the name of God.

[Oneofthewomen]

True Light,

I don't know too much about the saints- except for the Jesuit ones , and they, St. Ignatius in particular, are rumored to be pretty severe in the mortifications & penances they practiced.

I am intrigued by St. Rose of Lima. I know nothing of her, except what you posted, and if this is indeed true, it disturbs me greatly.

It just does not seem right to me that one would disfigure themselves with pepper & lye!

If I believe that I am made in the image & likeness of God, and that God gifted me with exceptional beauty, why would I want to destroy what God created?

I do believe that maybe, some of our beloved saints did indeed suffer from mental illness. The problem is, that most of our saints were canonized long before we understood anything at all about "mental health". It does not make them any less holy, it just makes them more human, IMHO.

[TrueLight]

Originally Posted by Oneofthewomen

I do believe that maybe, some of our beloved saints did indeed suffer from mental illness. The problem is, that most of our saints were canonized long before we understood anything at all about "mental health". It does not make them any less holy, it just makes them more human, IMHO.

I definitely agree that it does not make them less holy. They offered everything they had to God and he has rewarded them.

I'm just wondering how this sort of history is covered in theology class, for example.

[Rence]

Originally Posted by Oneofthewomen

True Light,

I don't know too much about the saints- except for the Jesuit ones , and they, St. Ignatius in particular, are rumored to be pretty severe in the mortifications & penances they practiced.

I am intrigued by St. Rose of Lima. I know nothing of her, except what you posted, and if this is indeed true, it disturbs me greatly.

It just does not seem right to me that one would disfigure themselves with pepper & lye!

If I believe that I am made in the image & likeness of God, and that God gifted me with exceptional beauty, why would I want to destroy what God created?

I understand someone wanting to make themselves not attractive to others due to insecurities (they are uncomfortable with the attention) or to avoid tempting advances (as in the case of someone who has consecrated them to God only). But to disfigure onesself is disturbing to me too. They can have the same affect, without abusing the body God entrusted to them, by covering themselves completely like some muslim women do.

Originally Posted by Oneofthewomen

I do believe that maybe, some of our beloved saints did indeed suffer from mental illness. The problem is, that most of our saints were canonized long before we understood anything at all about "mental health". It does not make them any less holy, it just makes them more human, IMHO.

Exactly. Who is to say that mental illness was not their cross for some of them, especially those who had extreme habits? It's not like it would have made them any less holy, or any less intuitive. Only God knows really. And I don't think it's disrespectful to explore these ideas as long as it's not done with malice or contempt.

[At Trent]

What we are seeing in these accounts of extreme practices is extreme faith. These Saints were so devout in their ways and means of achieving perfection that nothing else mattered. No cross was too heavy for them. Every minute of each day was lived for the love of Jesus Christ. If they were not going to make it to heaven, it certainly wasn't for lack of trying.

To us in this modern world, so spoiled and cavalier in our daily doings, and so comfy and self assured, these actions of mortification seem crazy. But to the saints, it was an easy sacrifice with a great reward. I would suspect the most pious among us today pale in comparison.

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by jmj1984

Wait what?! Saints having mental illness because they do extreme things? No, its not possible they were mentally ill, otherwise they wouldn't have been saints they'd have been crazy. Some people are called to greater degrees of holiness than others and so practice mortifications that we would consider extreme or even crazy but ultimately that just says more about their love of God and the extraordinary graces he gave them on one side and our utterly pathetic love of God (when compared to theirs) on the other.

Contemplating the possbility that they were mentally ill however is a big no no.

Actually, that's not a "no no." The Catholic Church employs several hundred of us in the fields of Ascetical and Mystical Theology as well as Christian Pysychology. Among other things, one of our jobs is to study the behavior of the saints and separate the human from the divine, the healthy from the unhealthy.

Saints were human beings. Many of them did have psychological problems. That does not take away from their holiness. Holiness is measured by a heroic life of faith and virtue, not the externals. A person can have extraordinary faith and extraordinary manifestations of charity and other virtues, but also have behaviors that are outside of the realm of good mental health.

We have had saints who suffered from depression, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, eating disorders and even PTSD. Mental illness is no more an obstacle to being a saint than is diabetes, heart disease, TB, or cancer. That is not what the Church looks at. Illness is illness.

During the inquiry leading up to Veneration, we separate that which can be dysfunctional behavior from that which can be sinful behavior. Dysfunctional behavior is not a sin and certainly not an obstable to holiness. It can be rooted in some pathology. One of the most famous saints who suffered mental illness was St. Dymphna. She suffered from panic attacks. St. Francis of Assisi suffered from depression, which is no surprise considering the abuse that he suffered at the hand of his ruthless father. There have been other saints with mental illnesses, such as St. Benedict Joseph.

The term insane is not a term of theology or medicine. It's a legal term invented by lawyers in order to process their cases using concrete language, since the language of mental health is often too abstract for the courtroom. It's a very old term, but not a very precise one.

It is also true that the Church does not endorse unhealthy practices, even if they are found in saints. Such things as consuming the puss from the wound of another person, is not seen as a heroic act of virtue. However, the Church looks past this unhealthy behavior to see the charity and humility behind it. It is this charity and humility that sanctifies the person, not the behavior that he or she uses to express it.

One has to take people in their context, as I always like to say. People can do very strange things for very noble reasons. As long as those strange behaviors are not sinful, then the person's holiness is unchallenged. It is one thing to do deliberate harm, which is always morally wrong and quite another to be eccentric or even neurotic. These conditions do not take away from holiness.

My personal feeling is that if we were a little more honest about our neuroses, we would probably all be a little holier. Honesty is the first step in humility.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

[Oneofthewomen]

Originally Posted by JReducation

My personal feeling is that if we were a little more honest about our neuroses, we would probably all be a little holier. Honesty is the first step in humility.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Love this Br. Jay!!

Can I get an
?

[TrueLight]

Originally Posted by JReducation

During the inquiry leading up to Veneration, we separate that which can be dysfunctional behavior from that which can be sinful behavior. Dysfunctional behavior is not a sin and certainly not an obstable to holiness. It can be rooted in some pathology. One of the most famous saints who suffered mental illness was St. Dymphna. She suffered from panic attacks. St. Francis of Assisi suffered from depression, which is no surprise considering the abuse that he suffered at the hand of his ruthless father. There have been other saints with mental illnesses, such as St. Benedict Joseph.

Brother Jay,

Thanks for weighing in as usual. You always add such clarity.

I didn't realize that there was a deliberate look at whether some of the behavior was dysfunctional, or an acknowledgement that mental illness can exist in a Saint. I thought it maybe just wasn't discussed at all because of the piety and contribution of the Saint. Very interesting stuff.

[Dan Daly]

Some of these behaviors, if done today, might be seen as mental illness.

I'd agree with that, but I think it is a truth that speaks poorly of what we think today, not of the behaviors of the Saints.

Western society has become so estranged from the faith and the supernatural. It's why people look at Al Qaeda and think they are insane. They can't grasp the idea that someone would actually be willing to die for their faith. Of course Al Qaeda is willing to die for the wrong faith, but Christians can and should be willing to die for the right one.

Pax and God Bless.

[Monica4316]

I have a book about St Rose of Lima and have read some of it...

She actually made a private, secret vow of virginity when she was a young girl, and possibly that explains how she didn't want anyone to want to marry her. Only her priest knew of this vow, but not her parents. (they found out later). She also really feared anyone sinning through lust, because of her (which is understandable).

As for the mortifications........ the way I understand it, - what matters here is a person's love for God... I think the Saints wanted to love Him so much, that they simply didn't care as much about pain, possessions, beauty, worldly success, etc. They were willing to give anything. Which of course, is a great thing....

It is my understanding that in the Church today, corporal mortifications are allowed with the guidance of a spiritual director; - but it was never taught that people should disfigure themselves. For example, even at that time, St Rose's spiritual director forbid her from scourging herself too much; as she was doing at first. (she obeyed him). So they make sure it's not done in excess or detrimental to health. It's supposed to cause discomfort, but not ruin what God created. That's just my understanding.

If some Saints did end up somehow disfiguring themselves, - even if that is not what should be done, - I'd say their love for God kind of makes up for such a possible error. I can't say. But we know that they did everything with love for Him, and that is foundational... if we become martyrs without love, it would mean nothing.

I think that this sort of thing is different than how people starve themselves, etc, because the Saints did this to share in Jesus' sufferings, out of love; whereas people with the mental illnesses do it for other reasons.

God bless

[Aelred Minor]

Originally Posted by At Trent

What we are seeing in these accounts of extreme practices is extreme faith. These Saints were so devout in their ways and means of achieving perfection that nothing else mattered. No cross was too heavy for them. Every minute of each day was lived for the love of Jesus Christ. If they were not going to make it to heaven, it certainly wasn't for lack of trying.

To us in this modern world, so spoiled and cavalier in our daily doings, and so comfy and self assured, these actions of mortification seem crazy. But to the saints, it was an easy sacrifice with a great reward. I would suspect the most pious among us today pale in comparison.

I'll use your statement in the place of what would have been the first part of my response, but still give the caveat I was going to give.

We do also have a responsibilty to our health, as I believe some extremely ascetical saints expressed towards the end of their lives (St. Francis, as I recall, asked the forgiveness of "brother mule the body" for the harsh treatment he had put him through).

In light of our understanding today of infectious disease, drinking the puss of the sick would be an extremely bad idea, and would have been even more dangerous in an age before antibiotics.

Saints who did such a thing did so either out of ignorance of the danger, or if they did realize the danger (people did have some sense of contagious disease even before germ theory explained it) then they did a wrong thing out of good motives. I doubt any of them were were truly, blitheringly insane, especially those whom the Church has explicitly set before us as models of heroic virtue through official canonization. It does not sound as though they drank puss because they thought it was tasty, or disfigured their faces while not realizing what they were doing. They knew quite well the natural horribleness of what they were doing, and did it anyway as an intentional deprivation for the sake of God.

G.K. Chesterton described the ascetical instinct as a natural human instinct, one which like other instincts must be kept within a healthy moderation. I think he was right, not because asceticism is an animal instinct like the drive for food, sex, comfort, etc., but because human beings are naturally a compound being of body and spirit, and the spirit feels freed by overcoming the animal instincts of the body. However, this impulse, despite being fundamentally good like all our natural impulses, can like the others be taken too far. Chesterton's example of this is the unhealthy extreme asceticism of Hindu India, in which people put hooks in their backs and pull them, and all sorts of other nasty things. Christian spirituality, being incarnational in nature, has an inherent tendency towards moderation of the ascetical impulse, without by any means extinguishing it entirely. I think St. Theresa of Avila is an example of a saint who began by undertaking extreme mortifications, then eventually came to a more healthy balance.

In our increasingly hedonistic and health-obsessed world, our cultural conditioning is generally in the opposite direction, towards creature comforts and against bodily mortification. Viewing past ages through the lens of modern Western culture, their ascetical practices can at first strike us as horrible. If they had been able to see forward to our time, they might have seen us as lazy and worldly and ungenerous toward God. The right attitude might be somewhere in between, not quite as cautious as most modern Catholics but not quite as extreme as some of the saints of old.

Finally, to round out the discussion, I don't know the accuracy but I heard once about a reported discourse between one of the Desert Fathers and a young disciple. The disciple asked something like "Abba, in the last days, will the Christians fast like we do and hold vigils like we do?" and the Desert Father answered something like "No, my son, in the last days men will hardly have the strength to fast for a single day or keep vigil for a single night. Yet they shall be greater than us. For we contend with the devil chained, but they shall contend with the devil unchained."

[Monica4316]

St Catherine of Sienna and Blessed Angela of Foligno were known to drink pus from the sores of the sick.

St Rose did this too once but she did this out of penance for feeling disgusted while helping a sick woman. Maybe their acts were a type of penance as well, to conquer the weakness of our nature.