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  #1  
Old Aug 31, '11, 5:41 pm
scc11 scc11 is offline
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Default Eucharist

This past Sunday at Mass,during the consecration of the Eucharist, a visiting priest stated "It will be shed for you and for many" or something to that affect in regards to the Blood of Christ. I thought it was "for all" He is visiting from Africa and am not sure if this is why......it just really bothers me because Christ died for everyone, not just certain people.
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  #2  
Old Aug 31, '11, 6:19 pm
GEddie GEddie is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

Actually, I think "for many" is in the new Mass translation, so we will all be hearing it. I am a wee bit confused; is the Church now teaching "limited atonement" in the Calvinist sense?

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Old Aug 31, '11, 6:47 pm
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promethius promethius is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
Actually, I think "for many" is in the new Mass translation, so we will all be hearing it. I am a wee bit confused; is the Church now teaching "limited atonement" in the Calvinist sense?

ICXC NIKA
Either way, some will reject Christ and so will not meet the criteria of the following portion "so that sins will be forgiven".
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  #4  
Old Aug 31, '11, 6:53 pm
Usagi Usagi is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

"For many" is actually the phrase Jesus uses at the Last Supper, so it makes sense to use it if we want to be quoting His words.

The Latin text of the Mass (even the OF) has always had "for many" ("pro multis"), but the English translation went with "for all." That is changing with the revised translation this Advent.

The Vatican has stated that both versions proclaim truth -- Jesus' death was sufficient to save all, but not all will choose to accept it. However, to agree with the Latin (and the Biblical Greek), "for many" will be the translation going forward. Neither change represents a change in Church teaching, of course.

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  #5  
Old Aug 31, '11, 7:19 pm
Mr Beeco Mr Beeco is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

FYI
I understand the Spanish Mass translation required no changes.

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Last edited by Mr Beeco; Aug 31, '11 at 7:37 pm.
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  #6  
Old Aug 31, '11, 7:50 pm
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Default Re: Eucharist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beeco View Post
FYI
I understand the Spanish Mass translation required no changes.

http://dominicofchandler.blogspot.com
Precisely. This change in the liturgy is confined only to the English-speaking nations. It is our translation that is odd, not the rest of the world's.
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Old Aug 31, '11, 8:00 pm
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
Actually, I think "for many" is in the new Mass translation, so we will all be hearing it. I am a wee bit confused; is the Church now teaching "limited atonement" in the Calvinist sense?

ICXC NIKA
It is what is written in Matthew 26:28.

Vulgate: His est enim sanguis meus novi testamenti, qui pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/vul/mat026.htm
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  #8  
Old Sep 1, '11, 4:19 am
japhy japhy is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

It seems that the most controversial change in the minds of many people (Catholic or not) is that of the word “all” to the word “many.” The old translation stated that Christ’s Blood was shed “for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven.” This is an accurate theological statement: Christ is “the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) But it was not so accurate a translation of the Latin. So now, when the priest says “for you and for many,” some might wonder if the Church is denying that Christ died for everyone. If we know that Christ died for all, how can we say that He poured out His Blood only for many? To address this issue properly, we need to examine the Latin and Scripture more closely.

First, the Latin word in the prayer is multis, which means “many” and not “all.” (The word omnibus means “all,” but that word has never been used for the Consecration of the wine in the Roman Rite.) Second, you will find that Jesus used the word “many” and not the word “all” in the Gospel: “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matt. 26:28) There is not one major English translation of the Bible that uses the word “all” in this verse. The priest is simply saying what Jesus said.

Why did Jesus use the word “many” on this occasion? To answer that, we need to consider Who Jesus is, and how He made His identity known to the people around Him. All four evangelists connect John the Baptist with the voice crying out in Isaiah 40:3, and Isaiah 40 marks the beginning of the “book of consolation,” those prophecies in Isaiah that deal with the relief and consolation that God would send Israel in their time of persecution and exile. A primary agent of this consolation is the “Suffering Servant,” of whom Isaiah 52:13–53:12 is a clear prophecy. At the end of this prophecy, God speaks of His servant in these words:
By his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities. … He poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:11-12)
Jesus was surely thinking of this prophecy, and how He was fulfilling it, when He spoke to His Apostles about the pouring out of His blood “for many.” So while Jesus died for all, on this particular occasion He used the word “many.” The reason can perhaps be explained by St. Paul in a passage where he uses the expression “for all.”
For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. (2 Cor. 5:14-15)
While Christ died for all, salvation is not brought about without our individual willing participation. By dying for all of us, Christ has presented us with the potential to live no longer for ourselves but for Him, but this is not automatically guaranteed for everyone. We can truthfully say (as the old translation did) that the Blood of Christ was shed for all, so that sins may be forgiven. But not all will have their sins forgiven, and so we can also say truthfully (as the new translation does) that His Blood was poured out for many for the forgiveness of (their) sins. It is with this in mind that the Church uses “for many” and not “for all.” In fact, the Roman Catechism from the sixteenth century explained the use of pro multis instead of pro omnibus in just that way:
Looking to the efficacy of the passion, we believe that the Redeemer shed his blood for the salvation of all men; but looking to the advantages, which mankind derive from its efficacy, we find, at once, that they are not extended to the whole, but to a large proportion of the human race. … With great propriety therefore, were the words, for all, omitted, because here the fruit of the passion is alone spoken of, and to the elect only did his passion bring the fruit of salvation. (p. 155)
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  #9  
Old Sep 1, '11, 4:27 am
japhy japhy is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc11 View Post
it just really bothers me because Christ died for everyone, not just certain people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
is the Church now teaching "limited atonement" in the Calvinist sense?
Here's the short version of my long answer (above):

Christ did indeed die for everyone. (1 Jn 2:2) His Blood was poured out for all, and He did this so that sins may be forgiven.

But just because sins may be forgiven does not mean they are, in fact, actually forgiven. Jesus' Blood was poured out for many (or for "the many", as some people would have preferred the new translation to be worded, and very reasonably too) for the remission of their sins.

So Jesus' Blood has the capacity and power to forgive the sins of all, but not all will have their sins forgiven.
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  #10  
Old Sep 1, '11, 5:14 am
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

For many refers to the fruits of the Passion, as stated in The Catechism of the Council of Trent, p. 227:



On The Form of the Consecration of the Wine:
Here, therefore, rather than at the consecration of His body, is appropriately commemorated the Passion of our Lord, by the words which shall be shed for the remission of sins. For the blood, separately consecrated, serves to place before the eyes of all, in a more forcible manner, the Passion of our Lord, His death, and the nature of His sufferings.

The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God (Matthew xxvi; Luke xxii). They serve to declare the fruit and the advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not to all, but to many of the human race. When, therefore, our Lord said: "For you," He meant either those who were present, or those chosen from among the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added, "And for many", He wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect from among the Jews or Gentiles.

With reason, therefore, were the words for all not used, for in this place the fruits of the Passion are alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of the Apostle when he says: Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; and also of the words of our Lord in John: "I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom Thou hast given me, because they are Thine" (Hebrews ix; John xvii).
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  #11  
Old Sep 1, '11, 5:56 am
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Amiciel Amiciel is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

The change of formulation from 'for all' to 'for many' gives us a text that is closer to Jesus' actual Words of Institution in Mark and Matthew. It is also in accordance with the translation guideline specifying that translation of the Latin text into English needs to be more literal.

Note that both terms 'for all' and 'for many' have basis in Scripture and Tradition. Jesus died 'for many' (in Mt 26:28 and Mk 14:24). Jesus died 'for all' (in Jn 11:52; 2Cor 5:14-15; Tit 2:11; 1Jn 2:2; 1Tim 2:6). Both terms (for all and for many) can be interpreted to uphold universal salvation.

D. Harrington (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, 626) points out that Mark's 'hyper pollon' (translated in English as many) "means 'for all', not just for a few." This is so because Mark and Matthew's Greek 'pollon' (translated as 'many') are in reference to Isa 53:10-12 which speaks of the Suffering Servant who "bore the sins of many" but who, we know, bore the sins of all. "Many is a collective, not a restrictive, word. It means 'all'." (Fr. A. Chupungco, OSB, The New English Translation of the Roman Missal: A Catechetical Primer, p. 57)

Exegete A. Vanhoye further explains that the Hebrew word 'rabim' (translated as 'many') refers simply to a 'great number', and does not refer specifically to either 'many' or 'all'. He points out that in 'rabim', no dialectic conflict exists between ' many' and 'all', unlike in English where these 2 words are mutually exclusive. He states that at the Last Supper, Jesus' intention, as Savior, was to die for all of us; and He did die for all of us. The new translation, 'for many', makes us aware that we have a freewill to accept or refuse the Lord's gift of universal salvation. It reminds us that, to be numbered among the 'many', we must accept the Lord's gift.

Therefore, the liturgical terms 'for many' and 'for all' are NOT to be seen as exclusive or restrictive because they complement and explain each other. The term 'for all' renders more complete, the meaning of 'for many'; and 'for many' renders more complete, the meaning of 'for all'.

That Jesus died for all of us is a dogma of Faith which both terms, 'for many' and 'for all', continue to uphold.
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Last edited by Amiciel; Sep 1, '11 at 6:12 am.
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  #12  
Old Sep 1, '11, 6:11 am
japhy japhy is offline
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Default Re: Eucharist

Another important perspective here is to realize that Jesus did not simply say "it will be poured out for you" (meaning the Apostles present at the Last Supper), but then included others, "and for many".

So "for many" should not necessarily be seen in contrast to maximal "for all", but in contrast to the minimal "for you" (who are few).
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