Atheist that follows Catholic morality. What's your opinion?

[ASimon]

Originally Posted by Bohm

[color=black][Actually, you're right. This morning I looked outside my window and wept bitterly that there is no fundamental meaning to life. As weird and as harsh as it may sound to some, I do believe that we are all just a "cosmic accident". I think the existence of God (contrary to what a few other atheists believe) makes existence more "bearable", but one has to discern - especially as they grow older - whether God really exists or whether it's believed by some to soften the harshness of reality..

While I can certainly understand that belief in the fundamental meaninglessness of a life without God, I think that upon further examination, this is a belief that falls apart rather easily.

Think about the subtext of this claim - that without God, and without an afterlife, life is fundamentally meaningless. What you're really saying, whether you realize it or not, is that unless experience lasts FOREVER, then it's not worth having.

Map that idea onto your everyday life for a second, and see how much sense it makes. Since movies end, watching a good movie is no different than watching a bad movie. No point in reading any good books, since they too eventually end. Since all relationships eventually end (for one reason or another), there's no reason to have them in the first place either.

To me, the knowledge that for every experience I ever have in my life, there will one day be a last time I experience it. And for almost all of these experiences, I will not notice it for being the last time I experience it, as I experience it. I think this makes life very precious, and not devoid of meaning at all.

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by Rahn

Bohm, can I ask you if you are truly an atheist (you don't believe that God exists) or are you an anti-theist (you are mad at Him due to the outcome or lack of outcome in the situation you've prayed over)?

Good question. I'm an atheist. When I say atheist, I mean, I don't believe in God. I'm indifferent towards His existence. I don't think about him day and night like I used to.

I say that the question you've asked is a good question because there are indeed "anti-theists" (e.g. Richard Dawkins). I don't spend my time attacking religious people; I don't have the time to. I do respect Catholicism and Catholics, I do acknowledge the fact that Catholic theology is the best theology of every religion I've glanced at, but this is where logic ultimately leads me.

[TruthSeeker60]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

Hmm, that's a good idea. It is very painful though...to be so convinced that something is real, that not everything is an accident, that someone created you specially and loves you...all to find out that it was nothing more than a nicely stitched up lie.

At least in ridding yourself of that false belief you can take solace in the fact that you can at least rid yourself of the undesirable aspects of theism, which are not quite as easily recognized at first. For example, you don't have to worry about you or anyone you love suffering in hell. You don't have to concern yourself with thinking there is a 'good' god who seems indifferent to suffering. You don't have to view humanity as inherently evil and fallen (original sin). Regarding meaning, is meaning dictated by a powerful authority or meaning decided by you better? I would prefer the latter.

Also, you can accept these things as genuine positives rather than self-delusions, which make them all the more better.

In addition, it's my understanding that when people are experiencing depressive emotional problems as a result of de-converting, those problems tend to evaporate. I have not experienced such depressive emotions when I de-converted (although it was a little stressful), so I cannot speak from personal experience though.

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by Rahn

If you went to Mass right now, would you see it as I described it?

Hmmm, actually, now that you mention it, it's a bit difficult for me to explain in words how I feel about Mass. I don't think it's an "empty ritual". I wouldn't go to Mass for the simple fact that I don't believe in God, and consequently, don't believe in transubstantiation, power of prayer, and so on and so forth. I don't hate Mass, I just want to avoid being there because I'm absolutely sure that God doesn't exist.

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by lauralh4

I am super happy regarding my faith now, but I understand what you mean when you ask about an atheist that follows Catholic morality. I think, if you're strong and confident enough to follow your own beliefs and convictions (I wasn't), go for it. Maybe this is just a faith crisis and you will come back to Catholicism - none of us can know. What it does sound like, though, is that this is part of your path and you are determined to do so. I think it's better to do so while still following Catholic morality, than to give your back to everything regarding Catholicism.

Hope one way or the other it turns out well, and that you are able to find some peace of mind.

Thanks . I was thinking that some users would say it was impossible, but it's good to see a glimmer of hope.

[Rahn]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

Good question. I'm an atheist. When I say atheist, I mean, I don't believe in God. I'm indifferent towards His existence. I don't think about him day and night like I used to.

I say that the question you've asked is a good question because there are indeed "anti-theists" (e.g. Richard Dawkins). I don't spend my time attacking religious people; I don't have the time to. I do respect Catholicism and Catholics, I do acknowledge the fact that Catholic theology is the best theology of every religion I've glanced at, but this is where logic ultimately leads me.

Thanks, it's obvious that you've thought about this for a long while.

How do you feel now? Do you feel free, like a burden's been lifted off your back? Or sad, like something's missing?

How would you go about leading a Catholicly moral life?

Thanks for putting up with all of my questions

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by Rahn

Thanks, it's obvious that you've thought about this for a long while.

How do you feel now? Do you feel free, like a burden's been lifted off your back? Or sad, like something's missing?

Good question. I don't feel like it's a burden lifted off my back. I think this is what was meant when Scripture said: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good" (Psalm 14:1). What Scripture was referring to were people who became atheist/nonbelievers so as to "dodge" the rules and justify living a life of corruptness. Some atheists are like that, some are not. So, no, I didn't become an atheist so as to lift a burden off from me of rules and regulations. I think the reason behind this was that as a Catholic, I always sought why the Church taught XYZ, and there was always a reason behind it. It's a misconception to think that Catholics believe XYZ is wrong simply because "the Church says so". There are deeper reasons than that, and I always sought the deeper reasons.

I do feel ultra-sad, to the point of depression, that I will never see my priest again. For instance, I went to the World Youth Day and my priest said a Mass for me. I came back from Spain, and I have missed Mass since then. I haven't seen him; he was a good friend of mine. Another reason I'm depressed is that all of my WYD friends were expecting huge things from me as well...some said everything I did was holy, I was a living saint, I was very knowledgable about the Church, some asking if I was considering the priesthood and so forth. It's sad to have to come this way, but what can you do?

Originally Posted by Rahn

How would you go about leading a Catholicly moral life?

I'm still trying to figure out, and hence the real purpose of this thread. Although living a Catholicily moral life is second on my list to getting my life back to where it used to be.

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by TruthSeeker60

At least in ridding yourself of that false belief you can take solace in the fact that you can at least rid yourself of the undesirable aspects of theism, which are not quite as easily recognized at first. For example, you don't have to worry about you or anyone you love suffering in hell. You don't have to concern yourself with thinking there is a 'good' god who seems indifferent to suffering. You don't have to view humanity as inherently evil and fallen (original sin). Regarding meaning, is meaning dictated by a powerful authority or meaning decided by you better? I would prefer the latter.

I guess you're right, although on the issue of Hell, I disagree. Whilst I was a Catholic, I often prayed that people I knew would be guaranteed eternal salvation (myself included). I've read numerous NDE and "paranormal" stories of people who were meant to be in Hell, but God told them they were spared because of the intercession of others.

Originally Posted by TruthSeeker60

In addition, it's my understanding that when people are experiencing depressive emotional problems as a result of de-converting, those problems tend to evaporate. I have not experienced such depressive emotions when I de-converted (although it was a little stressful), so I cannot speak from personal experience though.

If I can make it to the end of this year, I think the feelings will probably evaporate. I think what will happen is that I'll take comfort in material, tangible things, and make do with that. I think this is a bit like society around here...everyone goes about their own business. They don't stop for God (excl. Muslims, Jews, etc), and now I can see why.

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by ASimon

While I can certainly understand that belief in the fundamental meaninglessness of a life without God, I think that upon further examination, this is a belief that falls apart rather easily.

Think about the subtext of this claim - that without God, and without an afterlife, life is fundamentally meaningless. What you're really saying, whether you realize it or not, is that unless experience lasts FOREVER, then it's not worth having.

Map that idea onto your everyday life for a second, and see how much sense it makes. Since movies end, watching a good movie is no different than watching a bad movie. No point in reading any good books, since they too eventually end. Since all relationships eventually end (for one reason or another), there's no reason to have them in the first place either.

To me, the knowledge that for every experience I ever have in my life, there will one day be a last time I experience it. And for almost all of these experiences, I will not notice it for being the last time I experience it, as I experience it. I think this makes life very precious, and not devoid of meaning at all.

I agree with your analogy. I suppose you're right .

As for life being precious, I agree. Actually, as an atheist, that makes me detest abortion/murder all the more, because when someone's life has ended, that's it. No prospect of an afterlife. If you want me to be honest though, it does make life a little bit more scary living. As a Catholic, I was never really bothered about people getting ill for instance. I always believed that because God existed, He would ultimately heal them, even if that illness was beyond the scope of society's scientific knowledge. Now, as an atheist, I look at people who are very ill and I think to myself - "there's not much we can do". So you get a sense of helplessness. Another thing as an atheist is that it makes me want to live life much more carefully, so I can live as long as possible.

[AlanFromWichita]

Whether life should have a "purpose" might be overrated. So many people try to find purpose. They want to know their life "means something" in some eternal way. Why do we have to have a purpose? Does that mean that our ego needs to have a label at any given time that we are on this mission or that? Why can't life on earth be its own purpose? I can only exercise my will over my next conscious thought, word, or deed -- to plan beyond that is always wishful thinking, and according to scripture, boastful if we think we can do it.

I may not be around after tomorrow to reply to this thread; I have an emergence trip out of town and don't know whether I'll be connected.

Alan

[Equites Christi]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

Another thing as an atheist is that it makes me want to live life much more carefully, so I can live as long as possible.

You know, there is a way to live forever

And actually, there is a person who wants you to do so so much that He died for it's sake, that you might do so in bliss.

As others have said, hang in there. We do care about you here.

[Rahn]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I always sought why the Church taught XYZ, and there was always a reason behind it. It's a misconception to think that Catholics believe XYZ is wrong simply because "the Church says so". There are deeper reasons than that, and I always sought the deeper reasons.

I can so relate, I'm this way as well!!!

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I do feel ultra-sad, to the point of depression, that I will never see my priest again. For instance, I went to the World Youth Day and my priest said a Mass for me. I came back from Spain, and I have missed Mass since then. I haven't seen him; he was a good friend of mine. Another reason I'm depressed is that all of my WYD friends were expecting huge things from me as well...some said everything I did was holy, I was a living saint, I was very knowledgable about the Church, some asking if I was considering the priesthood and so forth. It's sad to have to come this way, but what can you do?

There's probably more to this than I know, but you should be able to see your priest again. He may not be your priest anymore, but he can still be a friend. And with your WYD friends, if they are truly your friends, they will accept you as you are now. People's expectations are just that, you don't need to feel guilty if you can't or don't live up to them.

[Nate13]

@Bohm Bawerk

If you understand Catholic morality and wish to live your life accordingly why not be Catholic? If you understand there is more to life then gaining pleasure and see that kind of mentality doesn't bring true happiness, why not believe in God? As you seem to have realized, if there is no God and nothing after death then what do we have to live for? The only reason to be a good person at that point is because it gives a person pleasure to be a "good person". If you have no other reason to believe in God, use that as your reason right now. You will believe in God because life is meaningless otherwise. Even if you think there is only a 1 in a billion chance he exists, does it not make sense to make that the goal of life considering the possible reward? If you have to believe in something why not the chance at eternal life? Grab onto whatever faith you can and pray that if God does exist he will pull you the rest of the way up.

[Nate13]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I agree with your analogy. I suppose you're right .

As for life being precious, I agree. Actually, as an atheist, that makes me detest abortion/murder all the more, because when someone's life has ended, that's it. No prospect of an afterlife. If you want me to be honest though, it does make life a little bit more scary living. As a Catholic, I was never really bothered about people getting ill for instance. I always believed that because God existed, He would ultimately heal them, even if that illness was beyond the scope of society's scientific knowledge. Now, as an atheist, I look at people who are very ill and I think to myself - "there's not much we can do". So you get a sense of helplessness. Another thing as an atheist is that it makes me want to live life much more carefully, so I can live as long as possible.

The desire to live is a natural human inclination. However we have many inclinations and just because they are inclinations does not mean we should submit to them as you well know. For example just because a person wants to have sex doesn't mean they immediately decide to have sex with whomever or whatever. What are you willingly to give up your life for and to what extent are you willingly to put your life in danger? Are you willing to die to save someone you love?

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by Nate13

If you understand Catholic morality and wish to live your life accordingly why not be Catholic? If you understand there is more to life then gaining pleasure and see that kind of mentality doesn't bring true happiness, why not believe in God? As you seem to have realized, if there is no God and nothing after death then what do we have to live for? The only reason to be a good person at that point is because it gives a person pleasure to be a "good person". If you have no other reason to believe in God, use that as your reason right now. You will believe in God because life is meaningless otherwise. Even if you think there is only a 1 in a billion chance he exists, does it not make sense to make that the goal of life considering the possible reward? If you have to believe in something why not the chance at eternal life? Grab onto whatever faith you can and pray that if God does exist he will pull you the rest of the way up.

I don't believe in God and can't believe in God because this is what I "just know". This is what I have deduced from slightly over 1 year of having searched for Him. And because of this, I will remain atheist until I leave this planet. My disbelief in God is so firm now in fact, that if Jesus ''appeared'' to me tomorrow, I would dismiss the experience as a hoax. God just can not exist.

As for being moral, I witnessed the London Riots a few weeks back before heading off to Spain. These riots escalated and spread throughout the whole nation. The riots encompassed youths looting from stores and getting whatever they can find. I was virtually sick to my stomach of seeing how our generation has lost its sense of decency in such a short space of time. So, that's one aspect of why I want to follow Catholic morality. If more people followed Catholic morality, or indeed at least some kind of religious morality, I speculate the world will be a better place.