Atheist that follows Catholic morality. What's your opinion?

[John Russell Jr]

Originally Posted by AlanFromWichita

(continued)

I'm still a bit fuzzy about how love both breeds and conquers evil. By "breed" do you mean it attracts evil? I've always been taught that satan goes after the most loving people, the most. He already owns the others.

... dearest alan , there is no such thing as good or evil , it is true and part of our entire world and absolutely all here is good and or evil but that can be riight and wrong , correct and incorrect , beautiful and ugly , perfect and imperfect and you can apply this fallacy of good and evil to every single thought in mans mind no matter what the thought is , everything is divided to good and evil ultimately no matter what you call it , in the beginning this was not so , it is true and so in this delusional fantasy world we're now in which is a punishment from god as said , this is part of the loss of the garden of eden or reality , good and evil only exist in mans mind and are not real , god has made them real in this game if you like so we must play along with it until we get reality back , but only love is real and the opposite of love is evil , if you know good you must know evil and one breeds the other -- it's just human nature , but love does not breed evil , love eliminates and destroys evil , and evil is actually nothing and love is something , so our goal is to change all into something or love by eliminating all the nothing which is evil , we are in this delusion because evil cannot exist as it would destroy god if it did , so evil in non - reality like here can exist because nothing is really real even though it seems so and we certainly experience it , god is working out our problem and fixing it so all is as it should be like before the fall though ,,,

It's an interesting example to me because a couple years ago, the infamous Dr. George Tiller (advertised elective late term abortions on his web site) was, in fact, murdered inside his own church, by some fruitcake. Pro-lifers condemn the act in public, but many are privately gleeful that it happened -- that's based on what some "pro-life" people have actually told me. (People tell me personal stuff because I like to listen to them.) Some of these are the same people who denounce abortion on the basis that "ALL human life is precious," yet they support routine use of the death penalty.

... i'm against the death penalty and was just giving an eg of self defense and defense of others , i'm also against all forms of punishment and testing even , i have my own ideas i think would work much better , different ideas to anyone else too so don't think me a nut , i like them as they would work and be humane ...

In your example, I don't see why the nurse would be going to hell for saving the doctor's life. She might go to hell for working for the doctor in the first place, but for preventing murder? I'm not there yet.

... your right , but i'd rather come before god for really saving a life rather than helping kill an innocent unborn little baby , might not go down well at her judgment ...


Why not? Just because satanists are confused and wrong and whatever, IMO doesn't mean they can't love; surely the love comes from God whether they know it or not. How do we know that high priest might not end up doing a Saul-to-Paul type conversion and be one of the best tools the Holy Spirit has?

... same answer as the last pretty much , i'd hate to come before god before i repented but it's no certainty their lost , just a 99.99 % chance i'll speculate if you like ...

Hmmm.... do you support routine use of the death penalty? And do you believe all human life is sacred, or just "innocent" life, IOW a person whom we have not yet judged as evil? Every human being other than Jesus is a mixture of good and evil. How can a human being measure the two against each other, in order to determine whether another man's life is "sacred enough" to save?

... i support self defence and defence of others and i've answered this earlier dear friend ...

I guess I don't understand why Jesus would have bothered to tell us that, then, unless He was being self-aggrandizing.

... jesus is our model and teacher , he must teach and inspire and this was a part of the prophesy he gave about his suffering and dying to prove he's the saviour , he also wanted to be sure we all knew how much he loves us , is god wrong to make sure all know this and how much he loves us , and everything god does he does for infinite reasons so i can't explain all reasons dear friend ...

And you as well.

Thank you again for your posts.

Alan

...may god continue to bless and love you dear allan and pour his peace out upon you and your loved ones ,,,

... john ...

[UnityofTrinity]

you said you want to follow Catholic morality because you agree with it, so you believe morality is subjective no?

[John Russell Jr]

... dear bohm ,,,

... you realise it's impossible for a human being to not have a god / s , be extremely religiious and a person of deep faith even if they are atheist ??? , it's who and what we are as humans , we can't escape it at all , we can't say i'm a bird and can fly , if we try we die ,,, you make yourself or others or anything your god if you don't know the true god , man does everything religiously -- it's his nature , and we must believe absolutely all on the basis of faith ,,, i offered to help you but if you want to pass then at least i'll have more spare time to enjoy dear friend , atheism is a bleak view that leads to an oblivionn of nothingness and despair , try to be a nice person but really , what's the point if nothing really has any meaning , value or purpose ,,, think bohm -- atheism is ridiculous , pure insanity ,,, you struggle with faith because of your extremely defective fallen mind , you need god to repair the natural faith you should have that makes it second nature to know him and all about him , the human mind is ruined by the fall , that is where this problem is ,,,, i can show you the true answer to every atheistic argument as said , i know atheism has proven it's right with most of it's arguments vs christianity but none really know they have definitely done this yet , but i have solved the whole lot of the problems to prove theism right , try me if you want , but it's a lot of work for me so don't do it if you really are not serious about your desire to get your god given faith restored intact -- as much as can be for now anyways ,,,

... don't say god didn't care or try to help you bohm , he's working thru me and others , do you really want help is the q

... may god bless and love you ,,,

... john ...

[JaredR]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

but one has to discern - especially as they grow older - whether God really exists or whether it's believed by some to soften the harshness of reality.

Very true, Bohm. Very true.

I was an atheist before becoming Catholic. I wanted to believe because it would make life meaningful and give me something to hope in. I had to investigate Christianity for a long time in order to be certain I wasn't lying to myself just to feel those good things. Today I can happily say that I don't think twice about atheism. I couldn't abandon the intellectual conviction that God exists, and necessarily exists, even if I wanted to.

But if there is anything that gives me pause, it's that Christianity seems too good to be true. Mind you, I don't have any doubts about the truth of Catholicism's claims. Yet I can't help but feel skeptical towards a God who rewards mere creatures so lavishly. The idea that eternal beatitude is offered to all of us just overwhelms me. Eternal joy, peace, and love are available to anyone who calls on the name of the Lord. It seems too good to be true, and yet it is. I want to depart and be with Christ so badly, but I know my first thought after death must be, "It's true! It's true! I can't believe it's true!"

[AlanFromWichita]

Originally Posted by UnityofTrinity

you said you want to follow Catholic morality because you agree with it, so you believe morality is subjective no?

You raise a good point, and I am looking forward to Bohm's response to it.

Honestly, I think "objectivity" is overrated. There is no one set of rules that one can follow in order to be a truly moral person; if there were, then we would have no need for Jesus because we could earn our way into heaven. The law of love is written on our hearts, and Jesus came to "switch it on."

Honestly, I would probably be a closet atheist (I'm raising my kids Catholic not to mention I get paid for playing music at Mass, so I wouldn't intentionally upset the apple cart) if I had never seen anything deeper than what I believe the vast majority of Catholics ever see. Even as a cradle Catholic, it wasn't until I was age 42 that I was lucky to have met my first "spiritual director" who started me on a spiritual journey, using Catholic resources, that I didn't even know was there to be taken. I had no idea until then, that the Catholic Church even had anything deeper than heaven/hell, guilt/shame, bribes/threats, moral codes, and adherence to proper ritualistic behavior. Now at age 52 I am deeply satisfied with my relationship with God, myself, and others, and even the Church. Emphasis on myself and others because I can measure that more tangibly than my relationship with God. But we have to start somewhere, and the brilliance of living a life based on Jesus' teachings, whether we believe He was God incarnate or not, is self-evident to those who give it an honest try -- and I don't mean the teachings of the law that we had before Jesus, but mercy and love and true humility that Jesus showed us.

It really isn't all about following written rules and regulations, it's about opening ourselves up to the power of the Holy Spirit who lives inside of us and will guide us if we get our obsession with outward appearances and behavior out of the way, thus allowing Him in to guide us in a Better Way.

So if I'm considered relativistic or subjectively moral because I don't necessarily respect all the rules for All the Right Reasons, then so be it. I feel like I'm in good company. I still say that St. Paul and Jesus were among the greatest relativists there were. Jesus had little regard for rules of morality that His own followers broke and even defended them when correctly accused by the righteous. St. Paul specifically said he is free to do anything, and among people with different moral conscience than his, he behaved as they did according to their conscience, not his own. This is a wonderful, liberating, peaceful way to live, and it helps us receive the gifts that Jesus died to give us.

So yes, moral rules and regulations are empty without God, but OTOH if somebody chooses to follow them not because they fear God but because they just "happen" to agree with them, then at least that gives them a crutch to try to limp along, even if not walk upright at least at first, rather than just sitting still and vegetating. To reject not only God, but the moral teachings of the Church, IMO is less likely to result in true Union with God than somebody who is at least willing to embrace the "outer wrappings" of the Church.

Alan

[AlanFromWichita]

Originally Posted by JaredR

But if there is anything that gives me pause, it's that Christianity seems too good to be true. Mind you, I don't have any doubts about the truth of Catholicism's claims. Yet I can't help but feel skeptical towards a God who rewards mere creatures so lavishly. The idea that eternal beatitude is offered to all of us just overwhelms me. Eternal joy, peace, and love are available to anyone who calls on the name of the Lord. It seems too good to be true, and yet it is. I want to depart and be with Christ so badly, but I know my first thought after death must be, "It's true! It's true! I can't believe it's true!"

You are right. In this world and especially in the US where we pride ourselves in "rugged individualism" we are taught that things we earn mean more to us than gifts. That is so backwards that it hurts. The blessings we receive from God are not earned or even worthiness-based, and in fact they are specifically designed to help those who struggle and mess up. A hospital is for the sick, not the healthy. Jesus came for sinners, not for the righteous.

A gardener has a love affair with his plants, tending to them with tender kindness even though they haven't earned it and don't even have a brain function to appreciate it. Yet they thrive under that loving care. A dog owner loves his dog and treats it better than many people treat each other. Why is it so hard for us to throw away the baggage we are given by our cultural upbringing and accept that God's love and merciful healing, and in general the "fruit of the spirit," are for everyone who can accept them, and are not based on a point system?

Alan

[LaFleurDeLis]

While I'm sorry you're falling away from the Catholic faith, I can't bring myself to go against what you're saying. The fact that you want to live a moral life that aligns with some of the Church teachings is a step in the right direction, even if that's the closest you'll ever come. You're one more person fighting the pro-life fight! There are Catholics who don't even do that. I know atheists that are good people. They aren't evil. It's just the path they have chosen.

I feel I might get attacked by saying what I just did, but I felt like I needed to say something. However, I will pray you find your way back someday.

[AlanFromWichita]

Originally Posted by LaFleurDeLis

I feel I might get attacked by saying what I just did, but I felt like I needed to say something. However, I will pray you find your way back someday.

You might be attacked, if not in this thread then at least in the minds of lurkers who decide not to post against you at this time. But if they attack you, then afa I'm concerned they're attacking me, too, and whether I answer it or not I'm on your side.

Jesus was attacked for his ideas about unity and human kindness as being much more important than the letter of the written law and identification with religious denominations. So we're in Good Company.

Alan

[erine]

Science and technology can do a lot but they can't create Eucharustic Miracles for example, when the host became actual blood and flesh. Nor can "psychology" make that physical change. Just one thought.

If you are angry with God (sounds like that more than not-believing, forgive me for being presumptuous but this is what I think is going on with most atheists) I would be happy to PM you my story and experiences. I am not trying to play the pity card but I would be willing to bet that what I've been through is objectively some of the most evil stuff many have heard of. Then I coukd tell you how I brought it to God and what He did with it and the undeniable effects of prayer beyond my imagination. I have many stories some would neve believe if I told them but they are true and I have witnesses. This is NoT saying my life is a bed of roses, just the presence of God and miraculous events and healings.

I know pain is not relative, but if God can get me through what I went through than He is real Nd anything is possible. I know He will reach you too...I have a funny feeling you could become really devout in thte future and be an apologist. Who knows but please PM me if you want to know about suffering and life falling apart I have been there.

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by UnityofTrinity

you said you want to follow Catholic morality because you agree with it, so you believe morality is subjective no?

I believe morality is for the most part, objective. For instance, I would think most people agree that murder is objectively immoral.

Other actions, such as suicide and euthanasia, not so much. The reason these are considered sins by Christianity is because of the belief that people don't own their lives; on the contrary, their lives are entrusted to them by God. So you can see that the damnation of these sins require belief in God as it's logical prerequisite. As an atheist therefore, I don't consider suicide and euthanasia objectively immoral. Personally, I do believe it's disordered and the "worst of all worlds", but I wouldn't deplore it in the same manner the Church deplores it (i.e. considering it a mortal sin).

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by erine

Science and technology can do a lot but they can't create Eucharustic Miracles for example, when the host became actual blood and flesh. Nor can "psychology" make that physical change. Just one thought.

Most Eucharistic miracles, indeed quite a significant number of Catholic miracles, are hear-say and rumours. I would say that there are some "impressive" miracles (e.g. Fatima, Lourdes, etc), but on the whole, I don't really like Eucharistic miracles too much. I think this stems from the fact that when I used to go to Adoration I couldn't "feel" anything.

Originally Posted by erine

If you are angry with God (sounds like that more than not-believing, forgive me for being presumptuous but this is what I think is going on with most atheists) I would be happy to PM you my story and experiences. I am not trying to play the pity card but I would be willing to bet that what I've been through is objectively some of the most evil stuff many have heard of. Then I coukd tell you how I brought it to God and what He did with it and the undeniable effects of prayer beyond my imagination. I have many stories some would neve believe if I told them but they are true and I have witnesses. This is NoT saying my life is a bed of roses, just the presence of God and miraculous events and healings.

Thanks. I'm not angry at God, and my sincerest apologies if I come across that way. I simply know that God doesn't exist. I can't stress enough how much I'm sure that God doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by erine

I know pain is not relative, but if God can get me through what I went through than He is real Nd anything is possible. I know He will reach you too...I have a funny feeling you could become really devout in thte future and be an apologist. Who knows but please PM me if you want to know about suffering and life falling apart I have been there.

Funnily enough, I had a friend during the World Youth Day who kept recommending me to enter Catholic apologetics. Too bad I later found out conclusively that there is no God.

I will PM you however to hear your own experiences

[Soldier Of God]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I believe morality is for the most part, objective. For instance, I would think most people agree that murder is objectively immoral.

Why would agreement make it objectively immoral? Historically speaking, most people believed slavery to be acceptable.

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by Soldier Of God

Why would agreement make it objectively immoral? Historically speaking, most people believed slavery to be acceptable.

Historically speaking, the Church deemed slavery as acceptable. If not acceptable, then at the very least it wasn't in loud objection to slavery. St. Augustine, for instance, regarded slavery as not in opposition to natural law.

I don't believe universal consent is what makes murder immoral. What I believe is that it has been written in Man's "heart" through evolution and by the simple virtue of the fact that Man is a moral being, that murder is wrong:

"How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortunes of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this kind is pity or compassion, the emotion we feel for the misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive it in a very lively manner. " (The Theory of Moral Sentiments, Adam Smith).

[Soldier Of God]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I don't believe universal consent is what makes murder immoral. What I believe is that it has been written in Man's "heart" through evolution and by the simple virtue of the fact that Man is a moral being, that murder is wrong...

The Church only tolerated slavery. Aside from being vague your statement shows no objectivity as highlighted by your "What I believe..." statement. How does one "quantify" what's written in one man's heart? What about cultures that practiced human sacrifice, gladiatorial combat or cannibalism? If it was objectively "written in their hearts", why the alterity?

[John Russell Jr]

Originally Posted by AlanFromWichita

You might be attacked, if not in this thread then at least in the minds of lurkers who decide not to post against you at this time. But if they attack you, then afa I'm concerned they're attacking me, too, and whether I answer it or not I'm on your side.

Jesus was attacked for his ideas about unity and human kindness as being much more important than the letter of the written law and identification with religious denominations. So we're in Good Company.

Alan

... dear alan ,,,

... i was struck by your wisdom on jesus and law and wanted to talk to you a bit about this ,,,

... your very right but missing the big point , a man must love the lord his god with all his heart , mind , soul and strength , and his neighbour as himself to be saved ,,, ignorance can be bliss but bohm doesn't seem to quaklify here , so if he rejects god he rejects heaven whether he obeys rules or not and has very little chance of salvation ,,, i hate all rules and laws myself as none are suposed to exist , in the garden of eden or reality this was so , but in this delusional world man is being punished with his knowledge of good and evil and the devil rules him mostly and man is like a god with beyond infinite laws and rules in his head judging continually and infinitely everything and everyone and even god , bohm has judged god and rejected god because god has disobeyed the laws and rules in bohms head , man rewards if his laws and rules in his head are obeyed and punishes if they are not , bohm is punishing god for his disobedience ith such problems as evil , sin , suffering , death , hell , prayer etc etc and i told bohm i could answer all these as none others have been able to satisfactorily , the atheists actually are right with about 80 or 90 % of their arguments at present because the current understanding of christianity is not complete , and this is why bohms going atheist , but i did offer to help him by gradually showing him the truth of all the problems which proves a loving god exists beyond mans wildest dreams , but he did not answer , and all these beyond infinite laws and rules in mans head are pure out of control insanity , they enslave man in bondage and are like his god , all the problems between men are due to these -- no small matter at all , sorry to keep rambling dear alan , i might post an argument showing why god must exist with proof soon , but i don't think any may understand it , i'll try as there is all the proof anyone could want of gods existence , the problem is man just can't understand and appreciate all the evidence -- and all is evidence ,,,

... may god bless and love you ,,,

... john ...