Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Sep 3, '11, 4:08 pm
MrZetterlund's Avatar
MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: October 27, 2009
Posts: 824
Religion: Ex-Baptist Catholic
Default Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

My brother says he's losing his belief in "Christianity" because he doesn't understand why God would allow "innocent atheists, non-Christians, Jews, etc" go to hell because they never came to a belief in Jesus. I never really looked at heaven or hell as the only two options, since there are alot of verses that refer to the dead or dying as "going to rest." What do you think? Help would be useful, thank you.

God bless....
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Sep 3, '11, 5:48 pm
starsmurf's Avatar
starsmurf starsmurf is offline
Banned
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2011
Posts: 601
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Well, the Catholic position is that anyone who has tried to live a good life according to their conscience will go to Heaven. The Catholic Church does not believe "innocent atheists, non-Christians, Jews etc." go to Hell. They are saved by Jesus Christ, even if they don't know Him during their earthly life. Many Protestant churches do not share this belief, thinking that if you aren't baptised you'll go to Hell and that if you are, you're saved, no matter how evil your actions are.

Heaven and Hell are not the only options, there is Purgatory, where most of us will have to spend some time being cleansed of our sins. We will want to go there though. It's as if you had been doing something like digging the garden that had left you dirty, sweaty and smelly and meant that you were wearing your oldest clothes. If you were told that your boyfriend/girlfriend was coming over to take you out to dinner, would you stay that way? No, you would have a shower, wash your hair and put on your best outfit. That is what Purgatory is about, we are getting cleaned up, ready to enter Heaven.

I hope this helps you persude your brother that for the Catholic faith is different to those Protestant churches. Who knows, maybe he'll even convert?

I'll be praying for you and your friend, and as a fellow convert, welcome home!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Sep 3, '11, 5:58 pm
fred conty fred conty is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2010
Posts: 5,672
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrZetterlund View Post
My brother says he's losing his belief in "Christianity" because he doesn't understand why God would allow "innocent atheists, non-Christians, Jews, etc" go to hell because they never came to a belief in Jesus. I never really looked at heaven or hell as the only two options, since there are alot of verses that refer to the dead or dying as "going to rest." What do you think? Help would be useful, thank you.

God bless....
"... Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." (CCC #846)

There is a lot in that statement, but none condeming those who do not know Jesus and his Church thru no fault of there own.

No fault means never heard, scandalized by catholics, don't believe it is his church, taught that the church is wrong, misunderstand church's teachings, believe she teaches what is wrong, etc.

This always presumes the person is being honest.

None of these you mentioned, "innocent atheists, non-Christians, Jews, etc", seem to fit.

So what do you think?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Sep 3, '11, 6:07 pm
PJM PJM is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 10,403
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Quote:
=MrZetterlund;8324196]My brother says he's losing his belief in "Christianity" because he doesn't understand why God would allow "innocent atheists, non-Christians, Jews, etc" go to hell because they never came to a belief in Jesus. I never really looked at heaven or hell as the only two options, since there are alot of verses that refer to the dead or dying as "going to rest." What do you think? Help would be useful, thank you.

God bless....
Here is the reason.

Divine Justice!

There are BILLIONS of planets an stars BUT only One can be proven to support the life forms we know of ...WHY?

This planet is EARTH, and on earth there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of living "things"... BUT only One can LOVE... WHY?

Humanity alone has what is needed to love. A Mind, a intelect and a freewill attached to our souls... WHY?

HERE is WHY

Isa.43: 7 and 21 " every one who is called by my name, [i]whom I [God] created for my glory and whom I formed and made.".. the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.[i]

"That we "MIGHT" freely choose to know, love, honor, obey fully and serve our God who made us.

God because He is Good, Kind, Loving, Fair, and Just MUST and DOES OFFER to every human person sufficient grace so that we can FREELY CHOOSE to know Him. MANY refuse this offer of salvation, so it is foolish to blame God for what WE OURSELVES decide.

And that is what your borother seems to be doing. God makes salvation available to all BUT Only SOME of us take advantage of it.

Matthew 7:12-14 "So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Nothing my friend in life is FREE... everyting has a price and can be had IF we are willing to "pay the price"... but let's not blame God because many are too lazy to pay the price of salvation

God Bless you,

Join ME in praying for your brother and his "friends"
Pat
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Sep 3, '11, 6:38 pm
lisahiku lisahiku is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 28, 2011
Posts: 334
Religion: other
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

one must believe in jesus christ in order to get into heaven.

If a person is NOT baptized, they will not get into heaven due to original sin being on their soul., However, they will go to a place of happiness, often referred to as limbo.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Sep 3, '11, 6:52 pm
starsmurf's Avatar
starsmurf starsmurf is offline
Banned
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2011
Posts: 601
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisahiku View Post
one must believe in jesus christ in order to get into heaven.

If a person is NOT baptized, they will not get into heaven due to original sin being on their soul., However, they will go to a place of happiness, often referred to as limbo.
No, the Holy Father abolished Limbo several years ago. It was in the mainstream media, not just the Catholic media.

The unbaptised can have a "baptism of desire", that doesn't mean that they wanted to be baptised during their lifetime. I was told that by a very conservative Carmelite Prioress, as I'm a convert and my agnostic father grew up in a Baptist family and therefore was never baptised. The Church teaches that all those who have lived good lives according to their consciences will go to Heaven, though they may have to go to Purgatory first. I got into a discussion about this with an atheist a few months ago and I asked several priests about it, they all said what I've written. Their salvation will be through Christ, even if they did not believe in Him. Like us, they will be asked to choose between God and self. If they choose God, they will enter Heaven. Remember the parable of the workers in the vineyard, where those who arrived at the very end of the day were paid first and given the same wages as those who had done a full day's work?

Do you really think that the God of Love and Mercy that we worship would seperate parents in heaven from their child who died before baptism? That despite Christ dying for all sinners, the joys of Heaven would be closed to someone from Iran or Saudi Arabia who could never join the Church because their countries forbid it or who lived somewhere that they never heard of Christianity?

I don't believe for one minute that the God I love and worship will deny Heaven to my father, who has spent his life helping and caring for others, simply because events in his life have left him without belief in God.

Last edited by starsmurf; Sep 3, '11 at 7:02 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Sep 3, '11, 6:57 pm
starsmurf's Avatar
starsmurf starsmurf is offline
Banned
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2011
Posts: 601
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Here is the reason.

Divine Justice!

There are BILLIONS of planets an stars BUT only One can be proven to support the life forms we know of ...WHY?

This planet is EARTH, and on earth there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of living "things"... BUT only One can LOVE... WHY?

Humanity alone has what is needed to love. A Mind, a intelect and a freewill attached to our souls... WHY?

HERE is WHY

Isa.43: 7 and 21 " every one who is called by my name, [i]whom I [God] created for my glory and whom I formed and made.".. the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.[i]

"That we "MIGHT" freely choose to know, love, honor, obey fully and serve our God who made us.

God because He is Good, Kind, Loving, Fair, and Just MUST and DOES OFFER to every human person sufficient grace so that we can FREELY CHOOSE to know Him. MANY refuse this offer of salvation, so it is foolish to blame God for what WE OURSELVES decide.

And that is what your borother seems to be doing. God makes salvation available to all BUT Only SOME of us take advantage of it.

Matthew 7:12-14 "So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Nothing my friend in life is FREE... everyting has a price and can be had IF we are willing to "pay the price"... but let's not blame God because many are too lazy to pay the price of salvation

God Bless you,

Join ME in praying for your brother and his "friends"
Pat
As I said in the above post, I had an debate online with an atheist about this very subject so I asked several priests what the Church teachings on the subject were. As I said in my first post, if someone lives a life that is good in accordance with their conscience, they will go to Heaven. They will be given a chance to choose God or choose self, just as we will. Like us, they may need to spend some time in Purgatory. That is what the Church teaches, not a case of "pray or you pay".
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Sep 3, '11, 7:13 pm
MrZetterlund's Avatar
MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: October 27, 2009
Posts: 824
Religion: Ex-Baptist Catholic
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

What about good Chinese people who live by their conscience but never hear the name of Jesus?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." -John 6:44

"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." -John 6:53

Btw, if you're in Purgatory then you're going to heaven afterwards. That's what Purgatory is for, clensing you before heaven.

"If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." -1 Cor. 3:15
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Sep 3, '11, 8:11 pm
divinefaith's Avatar
divinefaith divinefaith is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 2011
Posts: 618
Religion: Catholic on a journey
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Three types of baptisms in the Catholic faith: Baptism by water, desire or blood.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Sep 3, '11, 11:01 pm
lisahiku lisahiku is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 28, 2011
Posts: 334
Religion: other
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Quote:
Originally Posted by starsmurf View Post

Do you really think that the God of Love and Mercy that we worship would seperate parents in heaven from their child who died before baptism? That despite Christ dying for all sinners, the joys of Heaven would be closed to someone from Iran or Saudi Arabia who could never join the Church because their countries forbid it or who lived somewhere that they never heard of Christianity?
St Thomas Aquinas believed it. I never heard that limbo was "abolished". all of mankind has original sin on his/her soul. It is in the Chatechism.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Sep 3, '11, 11:01 pm
lisahiku lisahiku is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 28, 2011
Posts: 334
Religion: other
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Jesus also said "no one comes to the Father, except through ME"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Sep 4, '11, 7:47 am
thistle thistle is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 20,352
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrZetterlund View Post
My brother says he's losing his belief in "Christianity" because he doesn't understand why God would allow "innocent atheists, non-Christians, Jews, etc" go to hell because they never came to a belief in Jesus. I never really looked at heaven or hell as the only two options, since there are alot of verses that refer to the dead or dying as "going to rest." What do you think? Help would be useful, thank you.

God bless....
Church Teachings:

Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (but of course does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

The question is how can a person be baptised and Catholic.

- Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
- Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic faith)
- Baptism of Desire (Explicit), e.g. catechumens
- Baptism of Desire (Implicit). This is invincible ignorance (which you have referred to quoting the CCC). Invincible ignorance may (not will) save some people.

In all the above such persons are baptised and Catholic. Anyone outside these four will not be saved.
Not all Catholics are saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Sep 4, '11, 8:03 am
Newbie2 Newbie2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Posts: 7,361
Religion: RC
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Quote:
Originally Posted by starsmurf View Post
No, the Holy Father abolished Limbo several years ago. It was in the mainstream media, not just the Catholic media.

The unbaptised can have a "baptism of desire", that doesn't mean that they wanted to be baptised during their lifetime. I was told that by a very conservative Carmelite Prioress, as I'm a convert and my agnostic father grew up in a Baptist family and therefore was never baptised. The Church teaches that all those who have lived good lives according to their consciences will go to Heaven, though they may have to go to Purgatory first. I got into a discussion about this with an atheist a few months ago and I asked several priests about it, they all said what I've written. Their salvation will be through Christ, even if they did not believe in Him. Like us, they will be asked to choose between God and self. If they choose God, they will enter Heaven. Remember the parable of the workers in the vineyard, where those who arrived at the very end of the day were paid first and given the same wages as those who had done a full day's work?

Do you really think that the God of Love and Mercy that we worship would seperate parents in heaven from their child who died before baptism? That despite Christ dying for all sinners, the joys of Heaven would be closed to someone from Iran or Saudi Arabia who could never join the Church because their countries forbid it or who lived somewhere that they never heard of Christianity?

I don't believe for one minute that the God I love and worship will deny Heaven to my father, who has spent his life helping and caring for others, simply because events in his life have left him without belief in God.
It's worthwhile to note that Limbo never was an official Church teaching.
__________________
N2
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Sep 4, '11, 8:46 am
PJM PJM is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 10,403
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
Default Re: Who Goes to Hell and my Brother's Faith:

Quote:
=lisahiku;8324472]one must believe in jesus christ in order to get into heaven.

If a person is NOT baptized, they will not get into heaven due to original sin being on their soul., However, they will go to a place of happiness, often referred to as limbo.
My dear friend in Christ,

Your first statement is CORRECT [John 3:5] the second statement is however incorrect as stated, and requires some clairification. Let's look at the same Author, book and chapter and at the last few verses of the bible: [35]" the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. [36] He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."

One of the things we ought to do is to use extreme care whenever we pull a single lesson, thought or verse from the Bible. While ocassionally this can be done without missing a teaching, often a greater and more complete understanding requires more from us. We can put our souls at risk by using this "singular" verse/ thought or teaching practice. So care is required.


Salvation is a process of which some of the absolutely essemtial elements are grace, faith, hope, Baptism, chirtitable works, obedience to the commandments and to the RCC and what She teaches as these are warrantied by God Personally. [John 14:16-17, John 17:15-19, John 20:19-23 and of course Mt. 16:15-19.]

Because God MUST be Fair and Just in order to be God; He obligates Himself to make available to every human being SUFFICIENT GRACE for them to know Him. Bur because Grace is a gift; it can be accepted or rejected. SADLY many more reject it than accpet it.
[Mt. 7:13-14].

Rejection of God's gift of grace is REJECTION OF God;s love and mercy and will result unless one repents, converts [actually changes both there beliefs and life-style to reflect knowing and thus obligatiing one to serve, obey and love God] and does so before death, Hell NOT Limbo.

Limbo is for those who die without ever having an opportunity to actually KNOW of Christ and therefore could not reject the offer of grace to know Him. Aborted babies is the best example but so too those living in places where the Church and the Christian Faith is persected and the Teachers of Gods Word has not reached them.

This is vastly different than in Europe, the Americias, and other places where Christinaty has a foot-hold and if ONE so desired ONE could descover Christ. Deciding not to bother for what ever reson is identical as rejection of God = hell.

God Judges ALL of us on what He makes available for us as a possibility of knowing. Not doing so is rejection of God.

God Bless you, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

Pat
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8540Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Kellyreneeomara
5198CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: James_OPL
4433Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3870SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3837Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3397Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3300Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3231Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Rifester
3151For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Kellyreneeomara



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:57 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.