For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

[Credo in Deum]

Originally Posted by havana1

There's no such thing as "ex-gay." Stopping behaviors doesn't change or negate the innate attraction.

How would you even prove that their attraction is innate in the first place? How many little boys do you see when they’re young saying things like "no girls allowed" or "girls drool and boys rule" or vice versa when little girls talk about boys being disgusting? I mean if we could conclude anything from early childhood development it would be either humans are asexual or they are gay since they don’t prefer the company of the opposite sex when they are young. Humans are not born with sexual orientations like homosexual or heterosexual but rather they choose these sexualities when they get older based on their upbringing and social experiences.

Lust is the cause of all impure acts regardless of sexuality. Lust will take you to places you never thought you would go and the first step that starts this process is the pride of thinking that you were born with some innate attraction that keeps you straight. We are silly humans to think that there are things we could never be tempted by because we believe we were born with some innate ability to avoid them.

[Rkdajr]

Originally Posted by Credo in Deum

I would answer that this is what you’re supposed to pray for and how you’re supposed to live your life.

I understand that but when I say never again sinning or being tempted, I mean never again period. Only Christ and Blessed Mary are without sin, so how can we say that homosexual persons achieved this permanent overcoming of temptation?

[cemiller]

Originally Posted by havana1

It's called a comparison. I was making a comparison.

Someone who was "never gay to begin with" can easily go straight, since they're not gay.
Someone who never an alcoholic to begin with can easily go clean and sober.

It's like some people *want* these "never gay to begin with" males to actually *be* gay, as though "never gay to begin with" would be a bad thing? I think that it would be quite a relief, that they were never gay to begin with. "You mean I'm not gay after all? Whew-! What a relief!"

I think everyone should go back and re-read Rkdajr's question before attacking me again.

Your comparison appears to be saying that people that think they are alcoholics and go to AA and are no longer alcoholics, alcoholic were never really s to begin with, just like "gay" men that go to re-orientation therapy and become attracted to females instead, were never really gay...

So basically you are using your own opinion to assign/deny the classifications that people and groups ascribe to themselves. If they considered themselves gay at one time, all their lovers and friends considered them gay as well, but they end up reverting later then we should all just wipe all that off the table since you (without any evidence) decided they were never really gay?

I can agree that the therapy probably wouldn't work for everyone. I can agree that there are probably some men/women who have only mild attractions to the same sex that were never really gay that took counseling and claimed success. I think that telling a man/woman that has been living the gay lifestyle for years and years that got counseling and changed that they were never really gay to begin with is completely ridiculous. It just doesn't make any sense at all. If homosexuality has its base beginnings in the social/environmental development of young men/women (which most of the research is saying it does) then those factors are more psychological in nature then biological, and as such, can be altered if a person so desires.

[Credo in Deum]

Originally Posted by Rkdajr

I understand that but when I say never again sinning or being tempted, I mean never again period. Only Christ and Blessed Mary are without sin, so how can we say that homosexual persons achieved this permanent overcoming of temptation?

If Christ said to Mary Magdalena "go and sin no more" then this means He will give us the grace to go and sin no more! If you don’t believe this then you do not have faith in God and you do not believe that "with God ALL things are possible." I mean seriously what part of ALL don’t we understand? Did Christ say " only some things are possible with Him"?

I can’t even count how many times I read prayers from the saints where they tell God they will never hurt Him again by sinning and they say this because they believe with all their heart that with His grace their promise can be kept!

"And the Lord said: If you had faith like to a grain of mustard seed, you might say to this mulberry tree, Be thou rooted up, and be thou transplanted into the sea: and it would obey you."--Luke 17:6

Seriously think aout it, we are here to conform (out of love) our will to God's most perfect will. Now do you actually think when this has been accomplished (which it can be accomplished while on earth) that we being one with His will would hurt Him with sin? Is God's will tempted to sin? Is God's will evil? Impossible!

"And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me."--Galatians 2:20

We must sacrifice ourselves completely like Christ sacrificed Himself completely because when two persons do this in a relationship they become ONE!

[Rkdajr]

Originally Posted by Credo in Deum

[color=black][font=Arial][color=black][font=Arial]If Christ said to Mary Magdalena "go and sin no more" then this means He will give us the grace to go and sin no more! If you don’t believe this then you do not have faith in God and you do not believe that "with God ALL things are possible." I mean seriously what part of ALL don’t we understand? Did Christ say " only some things are possible with Him"?

I do have faith in God, but I also know that I have a fallen nature and that although I must strive for perfection as the saints, I will never be 100% without sin like Christ even with the utmost intention of not hurting Him again. Why is it, in other areas of our life we are told to carry that burden/confess/continually ask for God's grace but with SSA it seems possible to go beyond that and overcome it entirely. What if we were to say we can permanently overcome all areas of temptation or sin in our lives, isn't that falsely claiming we can become sinless on earth?

[Credo in Deum]

Originally Posted by Rkdajr

I do have faith in God, but I also know that I have a fallen nature and that although I must strive for perfection as the saints, I will never be 100% without sin like Christ even with the utmost intention of not hurting Him again. Why is it, in other areas of our life we are told to carry that burden/confess/continually ask for God's grace but with SSA it seems possible to go beyond that and overcome it entirely. What if we were to say we can permanently overcome all areas of temptation or sin in our lives, isn't that falsely claiming we can become sinless on earth?

No it's saying that when joined to God we will not fall into sin because we will be ONE with Him who has no sin! Saying your sinnless and saying your preserved from sin by God's grace are two completely different things since one claims you have the power while the other claims you do not have the power but rather you are dependent on Him who does have the power; Jesus.

"But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me"--2 Corinthians 12:9

We acknowledge our weakness and when we do this we humble ourselves and allow God to enter into our hearts. We let Christ take all of our wants and desires and we let him do with them what He wills and we all know that God never wills sin. There is nothing impossible about claiming that with God's grace we will never sin for it is the purpose of our very existence to be ONE with Him who can never sin. It's amazing because He has given us the chance to live the mystery of the Trinity but so very few of us get to experinece this joy because we let our heads get in the way of our hearts! It's called a mystery for a reason.

Quotes from Bishop Sheen

"He often chooses instruments in order that his power might be manifested otherwise it would seem that the good was done by the clay rather than by the spirit. -- from the archives of the American Catholic History Research Center."

"Believe the incredible, and you can do the impossible. It is our want of faith that holds us back, even as Peter. When did he begin to sink? The Gospel gives us the reason. He took account of the winds, he began reading some surveys; it was established statistically that 99.44% of mankind cannot walk on water. All of the incredulities were in the winds. When he took his eyes off Christ, Peter began to sink."

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by michelleds

first, the OP's OP was "How do you explain celibate gay Catholics?" and doesn't refer to "ex-gay" at all.

second, you have no basis other than your own thought process that there is no such thing as "ex-gay". Identifying oneself as ex-gay might be disingenuous, as you say, if that person wasn't really gay to begin with, if there was a mild flirtation with the lifestyle, for instance.

But for many ppl who identify as ex-gay, it is a rejection of a lifestyle and belief system and culture that has been adopted and lived for years, even decades. Being gay in the US (bc that's where I'm from and the only experience I can speak to) is more, much more, than just who you sleep with. and ALL that "being gay" entails must be rejected when one returns or turns to Christ. it is a huge thing and nothing so simple as you are trying to paint it.

one can be celibate and ex-gay. those two terms are not oppositional.

MY point was that unless the person in question is offering personal testimony, then it is no one's business how they self-identify.

By "ex gay" she means an individual who USED to be attracted solely to the same sex, and is now attracted to the opposite sex.

Behaviors can change of course, someone who has a homosexual orientation can choose to become celibate, choose to not follow in the life style, etc etc... but can they really change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual?

That's what this thread is about.

My opinion is that some individuals can and have actually changed from having a homosexual orientation to heterosexual one. However, I believe these individuals are in the vast VAST minority. And I believe that most people with a homosexual orientation will never be able to change over to having a heterosexual one, and will hence be called to a life of celibacy while still having homosexual attractions.

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by Credo in Deum

How would you even prove that their attraction is innate in the first place? How many little boys do you see when they’re young saying things like "no girls allowed" or "girls drool and boys rule" or vice versa when little girls talk about boys being disgusting? I mean if we could conclude anything from early childhood development it would be either humans are asexual or they are gay since they don’t prefer the company of the opposite sex when they are young. Humans are not born with sexual orientations like homosexual or heterosexual but rather they choose these sexualities when they get older based on their upbringing and social experiences.

Lust is the cause of all impure acts regardless of sexuality. Lust will take you to places you never thought you would go and the first step that starts this process is the pride of thinking that you were born with some innate attraction that keeps you straight. We are silly humans to think that there are things we could never be tempted by because we believe we were born with some innate ability to avoid them.

I used to be a little girl who called boys "disgusting" but at the same time I can remember having crushes on boys when I was as young as 4!

Most gays will tell you that at a very very early age, they always felt that something was different with them, and that they never had little girl crushes.

We don't know what causes homosexual attraction, but we DO know that the attraction is NOT something that is freely chosen. Much like yours and I's attraction to the opposite sex is not freely chosen. It's just there, and pretty much always has been in one form or another for as long as we can remember.

[michelleds]

Then I suppose that Lot's wife was still a believer in spite of her appearance of being a block of salt?

Is Paul still a persecutor of Christians? I believe they said something like "can a leopard change his spots?" regarding Paul's conversion.

Is Peter a Christ-denier?

what about Ez 36:25-27?

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Since this forum is both Catholic and named Moral Theology, let's try to address these types of issues from a standpoint that is Catholic, biblical, and moral rather than secular, knee-jerk, anecdotal and completely out of one's own @%^.

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by Credo in Deum

Lust will take you to places you never thought you would go and the first step that starts this process is the pride of thinking that you were born with some innate attraction that keeps you straight. We are silly humans to think that there are things we could never be tempted by because we believe we were born with some innate ability to avoid them.[/font][/color][/font][/color]

Uhhh...

I can attest to that.

I don't know about you, but I could never ever EVER be attracted to a member of the same sex.

I am a woman and I could NEVER be attracted to another woman. It's not that I choose not to, it's that I simply am NOT. I am not silly for saying this, because this is the truth. Whether I was "born this way" or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that I have an attraction to the opposite sex vs the same sex through no free choice of my own. And I could NEVER freely "choose" to be attracted to the same sex, even if I tried. It would never happen, and I have absolutely no control over that.

...But then again, this is just ME. Obviously it's different for you (otherwise you wouldn't have written that on your post), and maybe it's different for some other people as well. Point being this is certainly not the case for everyone.

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Originally Posted by followingtheway

How do you explain celibate gay Catholics?

I am so late to this------------as always-----------but personally, I believe that gays can be "reversed" and some choose not to. Also it could just be that some simply "develop" that way so it is "inborn," so to speak.

Whichever way, EVERYBODY (straight and gay/lesbian) who is non-married in the Catholic church is called to celibacy. And being Gay/Lesbian and Celibate still makes for a Good Catholic and is NOT a Sin. I
SSA is not a sin, remember that----it is when you act on it that it becomes a sin.

MY take. Take it for what it is worth.

[babylonsfalling]

Originally Posted by followingtheway

How do you explain celibate gay Catholics?

The existence of celibate gay Catholics doesn't mean that homosexuals can't change their orientation.

[francisca]

Originally Posted by michelleds

Then I suppose that Lot's wife was still a believer in spite of her appearance of being a block of salt?

Is Paul still a persecutor of Christians? I believe they said something like "can a leopard change his spots?" regarding Paul's conversion.

Is Peter a Christ-denier?

what about Ez 36:25-27?



Since this forum is both Catholic and named Moral Theology, let's try to address these types of issues from a standpoint that is Catholic, biblical, and moral rather than secular, knee-jerk, anecdotal and completely out of one's own @%^.

Thankyou for that Ezekiel verses.



In the end, when effort fails, psychology fails, biology fails, opinions fail-- after all of those-- only God's grace saves, for those who believe!

So it's about whether we believe GOD can make NEW ALL things. Whether God restore, revive, save.

[EasterJoy]

Originally Posted by Debora123

By "ex gay" she means an individual who USED to be attracted solely to the same sex, and is now attracted to the opposite sex.

Behaviors can change of course, someone who has a homosexual orientation can choose to become celibate, choose to not follow in the life style, etc etc... but can they really change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual?

That's what this thread is about.

My opinion is that some individuals can and have actually changed from having a homosexual orientation to heterosexual one. However, I believe these individuals are in the vast VAST minority. And I believe that most people with a homosexual orientation will never be able to change over to having a heterosexual one, and will hence be called to a life of celibacy while still having homosexual attractions.

I think "ex-gay" only means that one used to consider onesself homosexual, and now one does not.

[EasterJoy]

Originally Posted by Credo in Deum

If Christ said to Mary Magdalena "go and sin no more" then this means He will give us the grace to go and sin no more!

He said that to the "woman caught in the act of adultery" (John 8:1-8), not to the woman specifically identified as Mary Magdelene. Rather, Mary Magdelene was specifically identified as having been cleansed of seven demons, was at the foot of the Cross with St. John and the other holy women, and was the first person to see Our Lord after his Resurrection. It is also not noted in the Holy Scriptures whether or not the woman actually did go and sin no more. We'd hope so, but the inspired Scriptures do not feel a need to say so explicitly.

There are old traditions, including a homily by Pope Gregory the Great, that sort of blended Mary of Bethany with Mary Magdalene with the woman caught in the act of adultery with the idea that these were a single woman who was a prostitute, but the women in these varied accounts aren't connected in the Scriptures as a single woman.