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  #61  
Old Sep 20, '11, 6:16 am
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
I think "ex-gay" only means that one used to consider onesself homosexual, and now one does not.
Right, so if one does not consider themselves homosexual anymore, then they are obviously not attracted to members of the same sex anymore, and have switched over to being attracted to members of the opposite sex.

By definition, homosexual does not mean "someone who lives in a gay lifestyle," "someone who has relations with members of the same sex," "someone who has had x number of boyfriends/girlfriends."

By definition, homosexual simply means "someone who is attracted to members of the same sex."

So yeah, if someone no longer considers themselves a homosexual, then they are by definition, no longer attracted to members of the opposite sex.

...Which is precisely what I said.
  #62  
Old Sep 20, '11, 7:18 am
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michelleds michelleds is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
Right, so if one does not consider themselves homosexual anymore, then they are obviously not attracted to members of the same sex anymore, and have switched over to being attracted to members of the opposite sex.

By definition, homosexual does not mean "someone who lives in a gay lifestyle," "someone who has relations with members of the same sex," "someone who has had x number of boyfriends/girlfriends."

By definition, homosexual simply means "someone who is attracted to members of the same sex."

So yeah, if someone no longer considers themselves a homosexual, then they are by definition, no longer attracted to members of the opposite sex.

...Which is precisely what I said.
Debora, while your statements have a certain logic to them, I think it does not follow the real world usage of language. In my 24 years living as a part of the gay community, I never met anyone who identified as gay or homosexual without meaning that they were sexually active or actively seeking to be so. if someone says they are gay or homosexual, they mean that they have sex with people of the same gender. someone might say that they thought they were gay, and that would mean (maybe) that they had not (yet) had sex with someone of the same gender, but that's it.

so yes, the word ex-gay does mean something. with all due respect, perhaps someone who has claimed above to never ever be attracted to another woman wouldn't actually have a full understanding of what gay, homosexual and ex-gay mean to people who actually are.
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"The enemy held fast my will, and had made of it a chain, and had bound me tight with it. For out of the perverse will came lust, and the service of lust ended in habit, and habit, not resisted, became necessity." St. Augustine Confessions
  #63  
Old Sep 20, '11, 9:30 am
havana1 havana1 is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Debora, while your statements have a certain logic to them, I think it does not follow the real world usage of language. In my 24 years living as a part of the gay community, I never met anyone who identified as gay or homosexual without meaning that they were sexually active or actively seeking to be so. if someone says they are gay or homosexual, they mean that they have sex with people of the same gender. someone might say that they thought they were gay, and that would mean (maybe) that they had not (yet) had sex with someone of the same gender, but that's it.

so yes, the word ex-gay does mean something. with all due respect, perhaps someone who has claimed above to never ever be attracted to another woman wouldn't actually have a full understanding of what gay, homosexual and ex-gay mean to people who actually are.
Did I read that correctly? "Someone might say that they thought they were gay, and that would mean (maybe) that they had not (yet) had sex with someone of the same gender, but that's it." Does this mean that you concede some "ex-gays" were "never gay to begin with," since that's exactly what "thought they were gay" means? With all due respect, there are some things I need to see more of to alleviate my skepticism: outspoken "ex-gays" among them. Why don't you go public with *your* story and get an agent and snag a speakers bureau job with Catholic Answers? I see all this "ex-gay" talk on Catholic Answers message boards, but I never hear Patrick Coffin interviewing any of you guys and gals on Catholic Answers Live - why not? The whole SSA/"ex-gay" thing really needs a PR makeover.
  #64  
Old Sep 20, '11, 9:46 am
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michelleds michelleds is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Did I read that correctly? "Someone might say that they thought they were gay, and that would mean (maybe) that they had not (yet) had sex with someone of the same gender, but that's it." Does this mean that you concede some "ex-gays" were "never gay to begin with," since that's exactly what "thought they were gay" means? With all due respect, there are some things I need to see more of to alleviate my skepticism: outspoken "ex-gays" among them. Why don't you go public with *your* story and get an agent and snag a speakers bureau job with Catholic Answers? I see all this "ex-gay" talk on Catholic Answers message boards, but I never hear Patrick Coffin interviewing any of you guys and gals on Catholic Answers Live - why not? The whole SSA/"ex-gay" thing really needs a PR makeover.
So interesting you should mention the Speaker's Bureau. From a recent personal email to me from Tim Staples:
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At Catholic Answers, I always ask perspective Speakerís Bureau members and/or apologists to submit samples of writing and/or speaking so we can evaluate them. And remember this as well: I get lots of submissions, but very few actually make it to the Bureau. Thatís just the nature of the beast. Donít take it personally if your articles or various submissions are not received at first. Just keep plugging away and listen to the Lord. He knows exactly what he wants of you and for you. Just enjoy the journey. God is good and he wants the very best for you.
what I meant in the part you bolded is this: Back in the day, I would be talking to someone and that person would say, "you know, I think I might be gay." That is, in my experience, a sort of unconscious code phrase that means that person wants support and guidance for the decision they are trying to make. I don't know if you've noticed the couple of times that someone has come onto CAF and in making a post says something like that. I have been quick to jump in, to tell them to stop right there. they are teetering on a precipice and if they say that phrase to an active gay person, the gay person will say, "well hot dog, that's totally awesome and let me take you to the bar/bed and get you introduced".

as to the term "ex-gay", I don't understand your issue with it. is it offensive to you? if so, why? you think it's a lie, but I notice that you have not addressed any of my prior posts where I asked questions and quoted the Bible regarding this issue. you just keep hammering away.
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"The enemy held fast my will, and had made of it a chain, and had bound me tight with it. For out of the perverse will came lust, and the service of lust ended in habit, and habit, not resisted, became necessity." St. Augustine Confessions
  #65  
Old Sep 20, '11, 1:07 pm
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Originally Posted by michelleds View Post
Debora, while your statements have a certain logic to them, I think it does not follow the real world usage of language. In my 24 years living as a part of the gay community, I never met anyone who identified as gay or homosexual without meaning that they were sexually active or actively seeking to be so. if someone says they are gay or homosexual, they mean that they have sex with people of the same gender. someone might say that they thought they were gay, and that would mean (maybe) that they had not (yet) had sex with someone of the same gender, but that's it.

so yes, the word ex-gay does mean something. with all due respect, perhaps someone who has claimed above to never ever be attracted to another woman wouldn't actually have a full understanding of what gay, homosexual and ex-gay mean to people who actually are.
I've met a number of devout Catholics who identify themselves as homosexual (attracted to the same sex) while still living a celibate lifestyle as a devout Catholic. Much the same way I would still be a heterosexual, regardless of whether or not I had chosen to be celibate for life. Much the same way priests and nuns are NOT asexual, regardless of the fact that they choose celibacy for life.

I guess some people could "change" the definition of homosexual to mean someone who actually practices. But that is not the true definition of the word, and so that is not what I am going by. Regardless of whether some people use the term incorrectly or not, it does have a specific meaning.
  #66  
Old Sep 20, '11, 2:20 pm
havana1 havana1 is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
I've met a number of devout Catholics who identify themselves as homosexual (attracted to the same sex) while still living a celibate lifestyle as a devout Catholic. Much the same way I would still be a heterosexual, regardless of whether or not I had chosen to be celibate for life. Much the same way priests and nuns are NOT asexual, regardless of the fact that they choose celibacy for life.

I guess some people could "change" the definition of homosexual to mean someone who actually practices. But that is not the true definition of the word, and so that is not what I am going by. Regardless of whether some people use the term incorrectly or not, it does have a specific meaning.
Yes- thank you- getting to the crux of the matter- when someone defines "homosexuality" or SSA or whatever as *only* pertaining to *behaviors*, then yes, of course it's easy to be "ex-gay" since the homosexual person is not engaged in those *behaviors.* However, I have yet to see any real *testimony* from ex-homosexuals who are now "ex-gay" - I see anonymous, un-dated testimony from web sites, but alas, no WIVES, no HUSBANDS, no AUTHORS OR/AND SPEAKERS speaking to Patrick Coffin on Catholic Answers Live about how their wife's an ex-lesbian or how their husband is an ex-homosexual. Where are they? Until which time we can see more evidence - *any* evidence - of "ex-gay," I don't find the term offensive or objectionable. I simply find the notion irrational and at odds with the *reason* that differentiates Catholic Christians from our (often) less-educated Evangelical Christian brethren.
  #67  
Old Sep 20, '11, 2:23 pm
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michelleds michelleds is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Originally Posted by havana1 View Post
I simply find the notion irrational and at odds with the *reason* that differentiates Catholic Christians from our (often) less-educated Evangelical Christian brethren.
maybe it's too late in the work day, but I don't get what you're saying here. please elaborate
__________________
"The enemy held fast my will, and had made of it a chain, and had bound me tight with it. For out of the perverse will came lust, and the service of lust ended in habit, and habit, not resisted, became necessity." St. Augustine Confessions
  #68  
Old Sep 20, '11, 2:24 pm
havana1 havana1 is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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as to the term "ex-gay", I don't understand your issue with it. is it offensive to you? if so, why? you think it's a lie, but I notice that you have not addressed any of my prior posts where I asked questions and quoted the Bible regarding this issue. you just keep hammering away.
No, I don't firm the term "ex-gay" to be offensive. I do, however, think it's an un-scientific and irrational concept with very little (if any) evidence to support it. If I keep "hammering away," it's because I want to hear these "ex-gays" on the Catholic Answers Live radio show and on EWTN shows - places that one would reasonably expect to see notions like this to be validated. As of yet, I haven't seen any "ex-gays" profiled on Catholic Answers Live, EWTN, Ave Maria Radio, et cetera. They just aren't there. I think if someone's convinced enough that something is *true* (like "ex-gay"), they wouldn't let one person (like me) get in the way of *their* own "hammering away" to let people know there is evidence you can be ex-gay. I'm still waiting.
  #69  
Old Sep 20, '11, 2:28 pm
havana1 havana1 is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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maybe it's too late in the work day, but I don't get what you're saying here. please elaborate
Catholic Christians champion science. That's why we have the Vatican Observatory and our high schools are called "college prep." When Catholic Christians jump on the "ex-gay" bandwagon with ostensibly 'junk' science and expect to be taken seriously...well, I'm sorry, but that's not the way it works. None of the Catholic media (whether print media like "First Things" or TV networks like EWTN), let alone the Magisterium, has ever validated the notion of "ex-gay." It just hasn't happened.
  #70  
Old Sep 20, '11, 2:59 pm
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michelleds michelleds is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Catholic Christians champion science. That's why we have the Vatican Observatory and our high schools are called "college prep." When Catholic Christians jump on the "ex-gay" bandwagon with ostensibly 'junk' science and expect to be taken seriously...well, I'm sorry, but that's not the way it works. None of the Catholic media (whether print media like "First Things" or TV networks like EWTN), let alone the Magisterium, has ever validated the notion of "ex-gay." It just hasn't happened.
I think that you are confusing ex-gay being a scientific term and ex-gay being a term of self-identification. For those of us who were actively engaged in homosexual activities (see how bulky that language is?) and are now in full compliance with the teachings of the Catholic Church AND are willingly putting ourselves out there as voices in the debate, making ourselves available as examples or models or testimony or whatever...what word would you have us use? not ex-gay or former gay? straight doesn't really work, does it?

see, for various ideas on this:

Melinda Selmys--see her own website at www.sexualauthenticity.com
the book Beyond Gay
Eve Tushnet
__________________
"The enemy held fast my will, and had made of it a chain, and had bound me tight with it. For out of the perverse will came lust, and the service of lust ended in habit, and habit, not resisted, became necessity." St. Augustine Confessions
  #71  
Old Sep 20, '11, 5:49 pm
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

Let's just say that some people have had the experience of having a fluid sense of their orientation. They marry, split up, get a homosexual friend and get into a live-in relationship with them, split up again, and the next time around look for someone of the opposite sex.

If you asked them during the time they were living with the person of the same sex, they might tell you that the problem with their heterosexual marriage had been that they had not "really" been heterosexual. Only then when the same-sex relationship breaks up, they find they aren't "really" homosexual, after all.

I don't consider that being "ex-gay", but I don't think I'd have standing to say that to the person who'd spent a few years in a monogamous homosexual relationship and having no interest in the opposite sex. So who knows....maybe some people have an orientation that is never bisexual, but is subject to change depending upon their internal expectation of an "ideal mate."

People are complicated. When it comes to sexuality, probably anything is possible with someone out there, even if it is rare. I think it is wrong to say that there is no such thing as an "ex-gay", meaning someone who has only had an attraction for their own gender getting to a point in adulthood where they actually develop an attraction for the opposite sex. I also think it is entirely unrealistic to believe that there is some means by which everyone with an attraction to their own sex can change that orientation. That a change in orientation can sometimes happen hardly means that the change is merely a matter of willing it.
  #72  
Old Sep 20, '11, 6:17 pm
havana1 havana1 is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Originally Posted by michelleds View Post
see her own website at www.sexualauthenticity.com
the book Beyond Gay
Eve Tushnet
The web site is unavailable:
ERROR: Sorry, the website sexualauthenticity.com cannot be found.

Who, exactly, is putting himself or herself out there vis a vis "ex-gay"? I have asked repeatedly, including again now, for the husbands and wives of the ex-lesbians and ex-homosexuals to speak up and let their voices be heard. Where are they? I ask repeatedly why we're not hearing from them on EWTN or on Ave Maria Radio or on Catholic Answers Live? Where are they?
  #73  
Old Sep 20, '11, 6:29 pm
Catholic80 Catholic80 is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

I think we need to clarify "gay celibate Catholics" versus, "celibate Catholics who suffer from same-sex attraction."

A person can have same sex attraction and not consider themselves "gay" or homosexual.

I think the difference lies between the tendency (same sex attraction) and the lifestyle (homosexuality)

That said, a person can be tempted to sin (any sin) an abstain from that sin. If a person is experiencing same sex attraction and abstains from it, they are suffering from a huge temptation, but are not indulging in the sin. It's not their fault they are tempted. It's actually a testament to their courage to endure the suffering of temptation and not indulge. To label them would be a sin on another person's part. For example, I wouldn't call someone tempted to steal, but who never stole, a thief or robber. And I wouldn't call someone tempted cheat on his wife and adulterer. So why would I call someone with a temptation for same-sex attraction a homosexual.
  #74  
Old Sep 20, '11, 6:46 pm
RobbyS RobbyS is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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Originally Posted by havana1 View Post
Catholic Christians champion science. That's why we have the Vatican Observatory and our high schools are called "college prep." When Catholic Christians jump on the "ex-gay" bandwagon with ostensibly 'junk' science and expect to be taken seriously...well, I'm sorry, but that's not the way it works. None of the Catholic media (whether print media like "First Things" or TV networks like EWTN), let alone the Magisterium, has ever validated the notion of "ex-gay." It just hasn't happened.
Jung had a comment about homosexuality. He noted that it is basically an urban phenomenon, and is the result of the confusion of sexual roles in any urban environment. The flourishing of the homosexual life-style comes in the wake of the deep disconnect between sex and child-bearing. Not a new idea, but a true one, one that needs to be repeated. If sex is not for procreation, then what is it for? It is a weird kind of naturalism that contends that nature is all there is, but that nature is to be despised.
  #75  
Old Sep 21, '11, 7:50 am
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michelleds michelleds is offline
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Default Re: For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

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The web site is unavailable:
ERROR: Sorry, the website sexualauthenticity.com cannot be found.:
sorry, i typed that wrong. http://sexualauthenticity.blogspot.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by havana1 View Post
Who, exactly, is putting himself or herself out there vis a vis "ex-gay"? I have asked repeatedly, including again now, for the husbands and wives of the ex-lesbians and ex-homosexuals to speak up and let their voices be heard. Where are they? I ask repeatedly why we're not hearing from them on EWTN or on Ave Maria Radio or on Catholic Answers Live? Where are they?
you are not listening to me. did you read anything that I posted above? can you answer any of my questions? I've quoted relevant parts of my own posts below but specifically, please tell me what word/label you want people to use.

Quote:
For those of us who were actively engaged in homosexual activities (see how bulky that language is?) and are now in full compliance with the teachings of the Catholic Church AND are willingly putting ourselves out there as voices in the debate, making ourselves available as examples or models or testimony or whatever...what word would you have us use? not ex-gay or former gay? straight doesn't really work, does it?
Quote:
Then I suppose that Lot's wife was still a believer in spite of her appearance of being a block of salt?

Is Paul still a persecutor of Christians? I believe they said something like "can a leopard change his spots?" regarding Paul's conversion.

Is Peter a Christ-denier?

what about Ez 36:25-27?
do you deny that God could heal or change someone's desires? do you deny that someone could bring themselves --thru prayer and Sacrements--into alignment with God's will?
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"The enemy held fast my will, and had made of it a chain, and had bound me tight with it. For out of the perverse will came lust, and the service of lust ended in habit, and habit, not resisted, became necessity." St. Augustine Confessions
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