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  #31  
Old Sep 28, '11, 3:00 pm
MS_SURVEYOR MS_SURVEYOR is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

The Wedding at Cana

On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding , and when they ran out of wine the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."

Jesus said to her, "Woman what does your concern have to do with me? My hour has not yet come?" His mother said to the servants,"Whatever He says to you, do it."

Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews containing 20 or 30 gallons a piece. Jesus said to them, "fill the waterpots with water." And they filled them up to the brim. And He said to them, "Draw them out now, and take it to the master of the feast."

When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, "Every man at the very beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!"

This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him. (John 2:1-11)


Jesus give his first miracle at the request of his mother Mary.
  #32  
Old Sep 28, '11, 3:05 pm
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

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Originally Posted by MS_SURVEYOR View Post

Jesus give his first miracle at the request of his mother Mary.
Yes, just like any good Jewish boy would!
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  #33  
Old Sep 28, '11, 3:17 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Why is it that people go to the dentist through the recpetionist and wait in the office for the nurse to walk them back to the chair but they can't seen to grasp the idea of going to the Mother of God to get to the Son of God?


-Tim-
  #34  
Old Sep 28, '11, 3:20 pm
Rahn Rahn is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

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Originally Posted by saveusfromhell View Post
the passion of the christ, film, if you watch it may help you to obtain this, by focusing on the pain christ went through to save your soul.
Sooo... how exactly does that work? Do you need to be close to a TV and DVD player at all times? Do you have to watch the whole movie before you die (if you die midway through, it doesn't count)? Are the people on United flight 93 now in hell because The Passion of the Christ wasn't the in-flight movie?
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  #35  
Old Sep 28, '11, 3:21 pm
garysibio garysibio is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS_SURVEYOR View Post
The Wedding at Cana

On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding , and when they ran out of wine the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."

Jesus said to her, "Woman what does your concern have to do with me? My hour has not yet come?" His mother said to the servants,"Whatever He says to you, do it."

Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews containing 20 or 30 gallons a piece. Jesus said to them, "fill the waterpots with water." And they filled them up to the brim. And He said to them, "Draw them out now, and take it to the master of the feast."

When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, "Every man at the very beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!"

This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him. (John 2:1-11)


Jesus give his first miracle at the request of his mother Mary.
But notice what John 2 doesn't say:
"So then Mary said, 'Because Jesus did this at my request, every time you want to talk to my Son, you'll be going through me."
Yes, this one time Jesus acted in response to her request, but every other time someone has a request of Jesus, they ask Him. Mary wasn't even there. Also, there is no indication that the servants told Mary that they were out of wine because they wanted Jesus to remedy the situation. At that point Jesus had done no miracles so why would they expect Him to do anything? They may not have asked Mary about it. The text does not say they did. Mary may have noticed or overheard the servants talking. I know a lot of Catholics - including myself before I took a good look at the text - used this passage to support the belief that you have to go through Mary to make a request of Jesus but that is truly reading into the text (isogesis) rather than exegesis.

Now I am not saying that we cannot ask Mary to pray for us. We certainly can and I often do. However, it is wrong to say that we must, or even that we should (in the sense of having a duty to), do so.
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  #36  
Old Sep 28, '11, 3:29 pm
Rahn Rahn is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

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Originally Posted by Oneofthewomen View Post
Yes, just like any good Jewish boy would!
I guess that's the point: Jesus wasn't just any Jewish boy. He is God incarnate. I'm not sure it is accurate to look at His relationship with His mother and portray it as a human mother to son relationship.

I think that's where a lot of Marian devotion goes off the rails.
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  #37  
Old Sep 28, '11, 3:34 pm
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Elizium23 Elizium23 is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

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Originally Posted by garysibio View Post
This is all private revelation. It is not binding on believers according to the teachers of the church. The fact that you believe that something from a private revelation overrides public revelation tells me that you have gone over the top with respect to Mary. You are preaching another gospel.
These are approved revelations, which means they are worthy of belief by the faithful, and do not contradict Catholic teaching.
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  #38  
Old Sep 28, '11, 3:43 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysibio View Post
Way over the top, IMO. You might be interested in this thread.
I participated very vocally in the beginning of many of the recent marian threads and in fact may have started part of the firestorm of criticism of what many see as over the top devotion to the Blessed Mother. My comments in one of the marian threads, reiterated below, was originally directed at True Light. My position is clear - I believe that it is not over the top.

Paraphrasing from memory...
The fact is, whether you know it or not, as the Mediatrix of All Grace, all grace comes to you through Mary. That means every grace received when you are absolved of your sins in the confessional comes to you through Mary. Every grace which comes to you when you receive the Eucharist comes to you through Mary. Every grace received from every prayer ever uttered by anyone who has ever lived or ever will live comes to the person for whom they prayed through Mary. Every conversion of every sinner - even the thief on the cross - happens because Mary willed to distribute that grace to that sinner. My confession of 37 years and the grace I received as a result of it was granted through Mary. Mary is the Mediatrix of All Grace.
I don't think I'm exagerating when I say that my comments made True Light question her intent to join the Catholic Church, her struggle was that deep. Maybe she will recount the conversation she had with a priest about it.

Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace is not dogma of the Church. Just like the fact that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenent is not dogma of the Church, you are free to take it or leave it. But like many things which are not dogma, the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace is firmly established in the Church and we would do well to pay attention to it, if not embrace it. The works of St. Bernard and St. Louis de Montfort come to mind, as does the fact that Blessed Pope John Paul II had consecrated himself to Mary as her holy slave, and called his consecration to the Blessed Virgin the turning point in his spiritual life. I will do the same, consecrate myself to Mary as her holy slave on Dec 8 of this year. She salved my life. Why should I not live the rest of my life for her?

No, it is not dogma of the church, but I wouldn't be surpirsed if our grandchildren live to see it become so; the doctrine is that well esablished. The best things Catholics could do to help that cause is to continue to resist it and question it. I hope the Holy Father lurks here at CAF.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; Sep 28, '11 at 3:56 pm.
  #39  
Old Sep 28, '11, 4:14 pm
MS_SURVEYOR MS_SURVEYOR is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysibio View Post
But notice what John 2 doesn't say:
"So then Mary said, 'Because Jesus did this at my request, every time you want to talk to my Son, you'll be going through me."
Yes, this one time Jesus acted in response to her request, but every other time someone has a request of Jesus, they ask Him. Mary wasn't even there. Also, there is no indication that the servants told Mary that they were out of wine because they wanted Jesus to remedy the situation. At that point Jesus had done no miracles so why would they expect Him to do anything? They may not have asked Mary about it. The text does not say they did. Mary may have noticed or overheard the servants talking. I know a lot of Catholics - including myself before I took a good look at the text - used this passage to support the belief that you have to go through Mary to make a request of Jesus but that is truly reading into the text (isogesis) rather than exegesis.

Now I am not saying that we cannot ask Mary to pray for us. We certainly can and I often do. However, it is wrong to say that we must, or even that we should (in the sense of having a duty to), do so.
I see what it's all about dude.

Why can't you eat that apple?

Jump! God will save you!

You don't need a priest to confess your sins!

What's that brown thing going to do for you any way?

Mary was just another common woman!

Don't you have better things to do than pray with those beads?

DOUBT!

is what you're pushing.

This will be the last time I open this thread. The fact is it needs to be shut down!

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.

Amen.





The Brown Scapular | St. Alphonsus Liguori
  #40  
Old Sep 28, '11, 5:51 pm
DaveBj DaveBj is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Why is it that people go to the dentist through the recpetionist and wait in the office for the nurse to walk them back to the chair but they can't seen to grasp the idea of going to the Mother of God to get to the Son of God?


-Tim-
Jesus is God. If we're going to bring Him down to the level of a dentist who requires a receptionist to screen his visitors, then I'm going to go look for some other deity to worship. Fortunately, I won't have to, because I don't have to go through a secondary intermediary to get to Him. I can "ask and receive, that my joy may be made full." (John 16:24)
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  #41  
Old Sep 28, '11, 6:07 pm
Catholic90 Catholic90 is offline
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizium23 View Post
These are approved revelations, which means they are worthy of belief by the faithful, and do not contradict Catholic teaching.
Even if private revelations are approved, it is not required for Catholics to believe them or follow them! Jesus is the Savior, not Mary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
Jesus is God. If we're going to bring Him down to the level of a dentist who requires a receptionist to screen his visitors, then I'm going to go look for some other deity to worship. Fortunately, I won't have to, because I don't have to go through a secondary intermediary to get to Him. I can "ask and receive, that my joy may be made full." (John 16:24)
Very true! Excellent point!

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and deserves honor and respect because of that, but she is not a second god, and it seems to me many people seem to elevate her to a position even higher than God. God is very approachable! Jesus is the Intercessor.
  #42  
Old Sep 28, '11, 6:11 pm
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
My comments in one of the marian threads, reiterated below, was originally directed at True Light. My position is clear - I believe that it is not over the top.

-Tim-
Ugh...just like the Godfather, they keep bringing me back .... to these Marian threads
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  #43  
Old Sep 28, '11, 7:42 pm
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Why is it that people go to the dentist through the recpetionist and wait in the office for the nurse to walk them back to the chair but they can't seen to grasp the idea of going to the Mother of God to get to the Son of God?


-Tim-
This is a false arrangement. Heaven is not set up like a doctors office where you go through a series of people to get to the Doctor. We have access to the Doctor immediately, in fact Jesus taught us take advantage of this access when He answered the request..."Teach us how to pray"...and He responded..."Pray like this, Our Father who art in heaven..."

I would never go to Mary to "get to" Jesus. I would go to Mary or another saint for their help, strength and example, but I would continue to pray directly to God, as instructed by God himself.

I can't speak for others, but for me, it's not an issue of "not getting it" its just an issue of using the style of prayer I am most comfortable with.

Peace
James
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Oh my God , I will continue
to perform, all my actions
for the love of Thee
Amen.
  #44  
Old Sep 28, '11, 7:47 pm
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizium23 View Post
These are approved revelations, which means they are worthy of belief by the faithful, and do not contradict Catholic teaching.
This is true, so long as they are seen in proper perspective. Lumen Gentium is very specific that we must be careful in our veneration to avoid excesses. Therefore, when evaluating such private revelations, even if approved, they must be done in the light of the entirety of Church teaching relating to a given subject. Only in this way can one avoid potential error.

Peace
James
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.... if I have all faith so as to move mountians but have not love, I am nothing. - (1Cor 13:2)


The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: "The Fulfillment of All Desire"

Oh my God , I will continue
to perform, all my actions
for the love of Thee
Amen.
  #45  
Old Sep 28, '11, 8:14 pm
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Default Re: Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints...

Some of the comments on these type threads really bring into sharp focus why some of our protestant brothers and sisters have a difficult time understanding the position of the Blessed Virgin.
And Frankly I think that some of the comments make Our Lady sad. Sad because some people think so highly of her that they, inadvertently, create a stumbling block to some who are investigating the Church.

The Bottom line on this is simple. There is no requirement for any Catholic to Pray to Mary or to the Saints. Our prayers need to be first and foremost directed toward God. The CCC is clear on this that: "In the New Covenant, prayer is the living relationship of the children of God with their Father who is good beyond measure, with his Son Jesus Christ and with the Holy Spirit." (CCC-2565)
Likewise the CCC is clear that Jesus is our one mediator. (CCC-618)

I've told many who are struggling with intercessory prayer in general and prayer to Mary in particular that If you are uncomfortable praying to Mary or the Saints then don't do it. Our Blessed Mother is perfectly happy to have you join the Church and go directly to Jesus or to the Father rather than have you not join the Church because you are uncomfortable praying to her.

Yes - we should Love and venerate our Blessed Mother, but if we allow that veneration to become a stumbling block either for ourselves or others, we will make our Blessed Mother very sad.

Peace
James
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.... if I have all faith so as to move mountians but have not love, I am nothing. - (1Cor 13:2)


The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: "The Fulfillment of All Desire"

Oh my God , I will continue
to perform, all my actions
for the love of Thee
Amen.
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