Catholics who do NOT practice veneration of Mary or the Saints... - Page 4

TrueLight · #46 Sep 28, '11, 8:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRKH

Some of the comments on these type threads really bring into sharp focus why some of our protestant brothers and sisters have a difficult time understanding the position of the Blessed Virgin.
And Frankly I think that some of the comments make Our Lady sad. Sad because some people think so highly of her that they, inadvertently, create a stumbling block to some who are investigating the Church.

The Bottom line on this is simple. There is no requirement for any Catholic to Pray to Mary or to the Saints. Our prayers need to be first and foremost directed toward God. The CCC is clear on this that: "In the New Covenant, prayer is the living relationship of the children of God with their Father who is good beyond measure, with his Son Jesus Christ and with the Holy Spirit." (CCC-2565)
Likewise the CCC is clear that Jesus is our one mediator. (CCC-618)

I've told many who are struggling with intercessory prayer in general and prayer to Mary in particular that If you are uncomfortable praying to Mary or the Saints then don't do it. Our Blessed Mother is perfectly happy to have you join the Church and go directly to Jesus or to the Father rather than have you not join the Church because you are uncomfortable praying to her.

Yes - we should Love and venerate our Blessed Mother, but if we allow that veneration to become a stumbling block either for ourselves or others, we will make our Blessed Mother very sad.

Peace
James

God bless you James for saying this.

During my instruction, based on some posts I saw on CAF, I panicked at some point and I asked the Priest if I don't believe this or that, should I not enter the Church? He made it clear what required assent and what did not.

He happens to believe that in time I will change my mind, but he removed the stumbling block that could have kept me out of the Church.

TimothyH · #47 Sep 28, '11, 8:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysibio

But notice what John 2 doesn't say:

"So then Mary said, 'Because Jesus did this at my request, every time you want to talk to my Son, you'll be going through me."

Yes, this one time Jesus acted in response to her request, but every other time someone has a request of Jesus, they ask Him. Mary wasn't even there. Also, there is no indication that the servants told Mary that they were out of wine because they wanted Jesus to remedy the situation. At that point Jesus had done no miracles so why would they expect Him to do anything? They may not have asked Mary about it. The text does not say they did. Mary may have noticed or overheard the servants talking. I know a lot of Catholics - including myself before I took a good look at the text - used this passage to support the belief that you have to go through Mary to make a request of Jesus but that is truly reading into the text (isogesis) rather than exegesis.

Now I am not saying that we cannot ask Mary to pray for us. We certainly can and I often do. However, it is wrong to say that we must, or even that we should (in the sense of having a duty to), do so.

Please notice where John places Mary.

John uses a specific literary technique called "Bookending" where he places things of importance at the beginnning and at the end. John places Mary at the absolute beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry and again at the very last moment of his earthly ministry. The purpose of this technique is to communcate the significance of that which has been bookeneded and to show how it relates to everything in between. Remember, you couldn't just run down to Office Max when the printer ran out of paper back then. These guys were creative, and used these techniques to tell a story.

As an example, John uses other similar literary techniques to communicate ideas such as turning away from Jesus and then returning to him. For this John uses the charcoal fire as a marker. Peter turns away from Jesus when he sits at a charcoal fire in the middle of the night (darkness) and denies Jesus three times. After the ressurection, Jesus cooks food on a charcoal fire, this time during the day (light), and Peter returns to Jesus as he receives the commission to "Feed my lambs" three times. The charcoal fire is intended as a marker in the story, something that should draw our attention. We should say, "Aha! Another charcoal fire!" and ask ourselves what John (and God) is trying to tell us.

John even uses a technique where he references the entirety of the Old Testament scriptures in the first three words of his Gospel.

In the beginning...

These are the first three words of the Old Testament scriptures and the first three words of Johns Gospel. In those three simple words, John is saying "This is the fullfillment of everything written about in Old Testament scriptures."

These are amazing things to discover in the scriptures. God used these writers brilliantly. And because John bookends Mary, we can safely assume that she was there, even though she is not mentioned specifically. She was there at the very first moment and the very last moment of Jesus' ministry. It is John's way - God's way really - of showing us that Mary was there all along - beginning to end, like bookends.

-Tim-

**JRKH** · #48 Sep 28, '11, 8:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

God bless you James for saying this.

During my instruction, based on some posts I saw on CAF, I panicked at some point and I asked the Priest if I don't believe this or that, should I not enter the Church? He made it clear what required assent and what did not.

He happens to believe that in time I will change my mind, but he removed the stumbling block that could have kept me out of the Church.

TrueLight,
Thank you for that affirmation.

For me - and I think for others, the simple faith is the best. Find what works and stick to it. Learn other things only as you are comfortable and moved by the Spirit. Seek to remain at peace in the Spirit.
These are the things that I live by.

Peace
James

TimothyH · #49 Sep 28, '11, 8:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Ugh...just like the Godfather, they keep bringing me back .... to these Marian threads

I said it to that poor, high strung fellow who is no longer on CAF.... What was his name?

She is calling you. She loves you. And she is beautiful.

I will pray a rosary for you tonight.

-Tim-

Bob Crowley · #50 Sep 29, '11, 3:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by losh14

If you're a Catholic who does not venerate Mary or the Saints, what are your spiritual exercises? Do you have a prayer life, and if so what kind of prayer do you tend to pray?

I'm an ex-Protestant, so I haven't been brought up with the concept of venerating Mary or the saints. That said, I think Mary is the lady of the hour, with all the approved apparitions over the last couple of centuries. Being ex-Protestant however, I prefer to tie these into Scripture. As far as I'm concerned, she's the "portent in the heavens" in Revelation 12.

Veneration of the saints I find a bit trickier, but if there is one saint I think I'm supposed to relate to, it's St. Maximilian Kolbe.

My prayer life is pretty spotty at the moment, and even if I did pray to a saint eg. Fr. Maximilian Kolbe as above, it wouldn't be so much veneration, but more of a request for him to intercede on my behalf, since it is God who answers prayer in the end. Supposedly He's supposed to listen to the pleas of His saints with a bit more sympathy, but when you read about the faith of someone like the Protestant George Muller, who ran orphanages in the UK, after migrating from Prussia, and the way that again and again supplies and cash arrived in the nick of time, I find it hard to believe that "saints" get listened to with more favour than anybody else.

But then maybe George Muller was the equivalent of a Protestant "saint".

As far as I can remember, the only thing I've prayed for St. Maximilian Kolbe's support was a "Families Back on Track" program on the Gold Coast. To the best of my knowledge it's now fully funded, and it cost a few million dollars. Whether he had anything to do with it is not mine to say. I'm afraid I see the more pragmatic reasons - government support, local business support etc.

But then he may have influenced the minds of those who made the decision. I certainly haven't had anything to do with it.

There was one other time when I prayed to St. Martha (I think), at a time when I needed a job. I was a new Catholic at the time, and someone wrote that any prayer to her would be answered in six weeks without fail. I got a contract delivering mail in six weeks...

However I don't ask a lot for myself. I usually have requests for others, if anything.

But "veneration"? Not at this stage. I suppose I might get to that point with Mary, but I'd need to be very clear in my own mind exactly what her role is. My Catholic psychiatrist, who like me is a "Catholic by choice" (ie. he's ex-Protestant as well) once said to me, "It took me years to work out where Mary fits into the scheme of things. She basically intercedes on behalf of those in Purgatory."

I don't know whether he "venerates" Mary either, but he certainly believes she has a role. We believe; we can see the link; we can see the evidence. But being ex-Protestant, we tend to be bit tardy when it comes to veneration of Mary and the saints.

saveusfromhell · #51 Sep 29, '11, 3:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahn

Sooo... how exactly does that work? Do you need to be close to a TV and DVD player at all times? Do you have to watch the whole movie before you die (if you die midway through, it doesn't count)? Are the people on United flight 93 now in hell because The Passion of the Christ wasn't the in-flight movie?

that's nonesense, why not just ask me for clarification if it makes no sense,there is a thread on charity may be you could look over it
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=132852

perfect contrition it's impossibe to know if you have obtained it or not. you could wait till your dying moments to give it your first go. Or try and practise during life, ONE way would be to watch the film and try and relate how your sins caused Christ to suffer as graphically shown in the passion of the Christ. the more often you try and do this the better chance, i would imagine.

losh14 · #52 Sep 29, '11, 2:50 pm

This is not the direction I had intended to go - I was asking about spirituality of those who do not venerate Mary - but perhaps this thread can be fruitful yet. I'm trying to pick a good point to jump in here. We had a busy couple of days personally which kept me from participating.

Some asked what I mean by veneration - by that I mean any sort of petition, honor or supplication offered directly to Mary (or a saint). I don't mean "Thank you, Lord Jesus, for the example in faith of your mother and of her prayers for us, your bride the Church" since I don't see any issue there, and I don't think anyone else would.

Among all the thoughts expressed, there is one substantive difference in the role of Mary in our prayer life with Jesus. There have been some, I think, dangerous ideas stated here - and perhaps these aren't what they're stated to be, since communication is difficult.

Where I take issue is that Mary or any saint has any sort of involvement in our prayers with the Trinity unless we explicitly invite them. This is not an understanding that I think we can derive from the term "Mediatrix" as used in the Catechism. The Catechism does not support this type of all-encompassing always-necessary intermediation even though (apparantly) some bishops, scholars and mystics do.

As such, I find I cannot agree with TimothyH's bolded position on Mary as the Mediatrix of all Grace. I do agree with him that such a position is not dogmatic and therefore not required to be believed of any Catholic, though whether one is free to hold such a position and not be in error is a large question in my mind.

TimothyH, I will take your statement to my group tonight and ask them their thoughts. We have several seminarians who may be able to help me understand your statement - it may very well be that I'm reading it wrong. I thank you for offering it and hope you'll take my comments in charity rather than condemnation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

I don't think I'm exagerating when I say that my comments made True Light question her intent to join the Catholic Church, her struggle was that deep.

I hope this will not be an ultimate stumbling block for her as it is not required of her to join.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

I will do the same {as Blessed John Paul II}, consecrate myself to Mary as her holy slave on Dec 8 of this year. She salved my life. Why should I not live the rest of my life for her?

I admire your devotion, and I think of this as your private response to her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

No, it is not dogma of the church, but I wouldn't be surpirsed if our grandchildren live to see it become so; the doctrine is that well esablished. The best things Catholics could do to help that cause is to continue to resist it and question it.

Your words may prove prophetic. I hope they do not also prove divisive. About 15 years ago there was a rumor circulated by Protestants at my college that John Paul II would officially name Mary to replace the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, in response to a petition by some 5 million Catholics. Obviously there was never such a movement, and even if there were, 5 million signatures would not be enough nor would 500 million. But the rumor tore a number of Catholic students over to the non-denominational service. There is substantial opposition to a deepening of Marian dogma within the Catholic Church - a feeling that, even where hyperdulia does not interfere with latria, it is still unnecessary and perhaps wrongly directed.

losh14 · #53 Sep 29, '11, 3:19 pm

I should point out there's a difference between practicing veneration and believing a dogmatic article.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

During my instruction, based on some posts I saw on CAF, I panicked at some point and I asked the Priest if I don't believe this or that, should I not enter the Church? He made it clear what required assent and what did not.

In the parishes I've attended on Marian feast days, the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, the Visitation, were all homilized to be miracles of Grace done by the Father as a demonstration of His Love for humanity and of the manifestation of His power. That's not a stumbling block for me - the Father uses Mary as an example to inspire the faithful and for the faithful to imitate. Cool.

The doctrine of Mediatrix of All Graces is in this odd position. It is not dogma though Church teaching considers it divinely revealed. It is odd because there doesn't seem to be a definition for it that is decided upon, though from what (little) I've read, once that definition is agreed to, the doctrine will be proclaimed dogma. My understanding is that those who do not assent to dogma are considered to be in mortal sin, or schismatic, or at least not in a good spot.

I have to say I do have profound doubt about the doctrine of Mediatrix, especially if it were elevated to the status of dogma. Dogma includes such central truths as "Jesus Christ, true God and true man, and only Son of the Living God, died on the Cross." To elevate a requirement of belief that "Mary dispenses all Graces that her Son is source of" to the same level as "Jesus Christ, true God and true man, and only Son of the Living God, died on the Cross" is astonishing to me.

I also just found out that Mary as Queen of Heaven is also dogma. I will be confessing my doubt tonight in this dogma and do not expect to receive absolution. It will take me considerable time and understanding to be able to assent to this.

losh14 · #54 Sep 29, '11, 8:45 pm

I thought I should share this. As I was praying before confession tonight about the Marian dogmas that are causing me difficulty, it came to me that my sin was not putting trust in the Church to guide me. It was not so much the substance but rather that I was not willing to trust what the Church teaches. My priest offered that not everyone is able to understand or has the gift of being open to veneration, but so long as I was open to understanding the Church and did not let my pride make me think I knew better, I would not remain in sin.

This also brings it back to the original topic now ....
He was going to offer a Rosary decade as Penance, but decided to offer something I could put my whole heart into. It took him a few minutes to think of a non-Marian prayer, but gave me an Anima Christi to pray. That he took so long makes me wonder if we have neglected Christ-focused personal prayer in our catechesis.

Relatedly I spent some time in Adoration reading "Imitation of Christ", second part twelfth chapter:

Why, then, do you fear to take up the cross when through it you can win a kingdom? In the cross is salvation, in the cross is life, in the cross is protection from enemies, in the cross is infusion of heavenly sweetness, in the cross is strength of mind, in the cross is joy of spirit, in the cross is highest virtue, in the cross is perfect holiness. There is no salvation of soul nor hope of everlasting life but in the cross.

I suppose this is my answer to my own question - my current devotion is this book.

**JRKH** · #55 Sep 30, '11, 7:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by losh14

I thought I should share this. As I was praying before confession tonight about the Marian dogmas that are causing me difficulty, it came to me that my sin was not putting trust in the Church to guide me. It was not so much the substance but rather that I was not willing to trust what the Church teaches. My priest offered that not everyone is able to understand or has the gift of being open to veneration, but so long as I was open to understanding the Church and did not let my pride make me think I knew better, I would not remain in sin.

What a blessed revelation. This has been my comfort as well. Whenever I hit on something that is beyond my ability to understand, I just set it aside and trust that the Church, guided and protected by Christ Himself, is not teaching error.
This preserves my peace and prevents me from getting sidetracked from my walk with Christ by details.

Quote:

This also brings it back to the original topic now ....
He was going to offer a Rosary decade as Penance, but decided to offer something I could put my whole heart into. It took him a few minutes to think of a non-Marian prayer, but gave me an Anima Christi to pray. That he took so long makes me wonder if we have neglected Christ-focused personal prayer in our catechesis.

I LOVE The Anima Christi prayer. I also love the Prayer of St Francis - "Make me an instrument of your peace..."

It may be that there is a lot - even a bit much - emphasis on Marion devotion in general, which could certainly stem from the fact that our Blessed late pontiff JP II had a great devotion to Our Lady.
Your confessor's difficulty might simply stem from his own devotion to Our Lady and so the prayers that came immediately to his mind were Marion in nature.

Relatedly I spent some time in Adoration reading "Imitation of Christ", second part twelfth chapter:

Quote:

Why, then, do you fear to take up the cross when through it you can win a kingdom? In the cross is salvation, in the cross is life, in the cross is protection from enemies, in the cross is infusion of heavenly sweetness, in the cross is strength of mind, in the cross is joy of spirit, in the cross is highest virtue, in the cross is perfect holiness. There is no salvation of soul nor hope of everlasting life but in the cross.

I suppose this is my answer to my own question - my current devotion is this book.

Great quote and a wonderful thing to reflect on. Thanks for sharing.

Peace
James

Miriam1947 · #56 Sep 30, '11, 7:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elizium23

These are approved revelations, which means they are worthy of belief by the faithful, and do not contradict Catholic teaching.

Worthy of belief does not mean I must believe in any apparition anywhere. It is only binding on the person who received it and then only if approved.

losh14 · #57 Sep 30, '11, 7:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

Please notice where John places Mary.

John uses a specific literary technique called "Bookending" where he places things of importance at the beginnning and at the end.

Thank you for the examples of bookending. Another example is the "born again" dialogue (John 3) and the "Bread of Life" dialogue (John 6). I've read similar later commentary among the patristics, who specifically note that Jesus' public ministry was encouraged (some say "pushed", almost as if impatiently) by Mary with the signs at the wedding at Cana. But I don't see how this enables us to communicate with Mary or the saints. Certainly the patristics held Mary in high esteem and importance as an example of faith and one to be imitated. I was reading last night - far too late into the night - and was surprised to find the parallels between Eve and Mary were described as early as the 3rd century. This is noteworthy because much criticism of Marian teaching is that it is "new", ie post-Nicea, and thus bears the imprint of some pagan cult.

What is a little maddening is that, even though the Martyrdom of Polycarp (mid-2nd century) mentions the veneration of martyrs, it describes nothing of how this was practiced. Were the martyrs directly prayed to by believers in the early Church, or were they commemorated without being addressed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

And because John bookends Mary, we can safely assume that she was there, even though she is not mentioned specifically. She was there at the very first moment and the very last moment of Jesus' ministry. It is John's way - God's way really - of showing us that Mary was there all along - beginning to end, like bookends.
-Tim-

And this is wonderful but what are we to do with it?

losh14 · #58 Sep 30, '11, 8:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriam1947

Worthy of belief does not mean I must believe in any apparition anywhere. It is only binding on the person who received it and then only if approved.

I agree with you. It is interesting, though, that some of the most common devotions were received through private revelation that was later given considerable approval by being adopted or standardized by a Pope. The Rosary was given St. Dominic and later standardized by Pope Pius V, for example. It has since taken a prominent position as perhaps the most common Catholic devotion.

TrueLight · #59 Sep 30, '11, 11:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

I said it to that poor, high strung fellow who is no longer on CAF.... What was his name?

She is calling you. She loves you. And she is beautiful.

I will pray a rosary for you tonight.

-Tim-

GloriousOrder? Poor chap.

losh14 · #60 Sep 30, '11, 12:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyH

Why is it that people go to the dentist through the recpetionist and wait in the office for the nurse to walk them back to the chair but they can't seen to grasp the idea of going to the Mother of God to get to the Son of God?

Why would Jesus need a receptionist? To take messages while He's away? To keep track of your charts and harangue you about missed appointments? We're talking about Divinity, not a medical professional.