Animal Torture, to what degree if any, are we to respect animals?

Ana v · #1 Oct 6, '11, 7:44 pm

Non-human animals, that is.

Consider this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THIODWTqx5E

Incredibly disgusting -- I was especially disturbed and saddened by 2:30 - 2:54 wherein the video shows and mentions male chicks being thrown alive into grinding machines.

** Please, no digressions about the motives/intentions/hidden agendas/ hypocrisies etc of certain vegetarian or vegan groups, or, about the topic of practicality as it relates to killing methods /costs, etc. I didn't start this thread to start discussion about practicality, government laws, or money. I'm seeking strictly moral analysis.

From a Catholic standpoint, do these human treatments of farm animals fall under the category of morality (good/evil)? Or are they morally neutral?

Intuitively and emotionally, I categorize them under "evil". If we intellectualize this issue, however, the categorization may or may not be the same.

Monica4316 · #2 Oct 6, '11, 8:12 pm

I believe that we should respect God's creation and all creatures...

Rence · #3 Oct 6, '11, 8:21 pm

I can't even imagine what goes through the mind of a person who harms animals. If they're not evil then I don't know what evil is, and not sure I want to know.

I can tell you a little bit about the economics of chicken and egg factories. In an egg factory, the males are dispatched as soon as their sex can be identified because they can't lay eggs. Not only can they not lay eggs, but as egg-layer breed roosters, they don't provide enough meat. Laying breeds of chickens are thin and don't have a lot of meat. Wheras, meat chickens are more meaty but provide less eggs. Some chickens are good dual purpose birds, but egg factories utilize egg laying breeds and chicken meat factories utilize meat breeds. Therefore, it would cost more to grow out these male chickens in an egg factory than they are worth, resulting in a loss for the egg factory, which drives up the cost of production, and of course, drives up the cost of the eggs. Therefore they "dispatch" them early so that they are not a financial burden. One would offer that the roosters could be rounded up and sent to a charity organization to feed the hungry, but again, it will cost more to grow them out than they are worth, making them worthless for even the hungry.

What can you do? Purchase from you local farmers. They dispatch their roosters more humanely, usually. Your local small family farmers usually have dual purpose chickens and "mutt" chickens which make good dual purpose birds, therefore the roosters are used for meat while the hens are used for laying eggs.

It's important to note that not all food producers are the same. There are hog, beef, milk, chicken producers who provide us with our food with a conscience. There are some dairies you could eat off the floors in, and others that you wouldn't want the bottom of your shoes to touch, for example. But, generally, the closer and more accainted you are with your food source, the better the animals are treated.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with treating animals destined for the freezer with dignity and respect. Unfortunately, economics usually gets in the way of that dignity and respect. This country doesn't make survival easy for farmers. They get a FRACTION of the cost of your food.

**Bookcat** · #4 Oct 6, '11, 8:26 pm

Catechism:

2416 Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.196 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.197 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice, if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

PbloPicasso · #5 Oct 6, '11, 8:35 pm

I believe that you have come across the Vegan pushers. Some of what you've presented is not what I consider to be the norm. In fact, as many radical organizations like to do they stage this stuff knowing the gut reaction.

Have you ever watched Dirty Jobs? The big farmer treats the pigs much better than what you've seen. That doesn't mean it doesn't get out of hand by unscrupulous farmers. I do know the method they kill animals. Welcome to the slaughter house. In the times of the Jews, thousands of animals were lead to the slaughter at the Temple for the atonement of sins. Nothing is new under the sun. In fact, the method of slaughter would be consider even more gruesome in comparison to what you've shown.

When I was a child, my baby sitter's husband would pick a certain number of pigion or chickens. He twisted their necks to kill them and their bodies would try to run around. To me, this is normal and acceptable. Those who act as if Jesus didn't eat meat, do NOT understand the Jews of ancient times. You need to study up on the Passover and what it entails in the meal. No where does scripture tell of Jesus' abstinence of meat. Only the radical groups like to portray this untruth.

In summary, animal deaths ought to be expedited as least painful as possible. But nowhere does it give us the impression that slaughtering animals for sustenance is unacceptable.

severus68 · #6 Oct 7, '11, 4:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ana v

Non-human animals, that is.

Consider this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THIODWTqx5E

Incredibly disgusting -- I was especially disturbed and saddened by 2:30 - 2:54 wherein the video shows and mentions male chicks being thrown alive into grinding machines.

** Please, no digressions about the motives/intentions/hidden agendas/ hypocrisies etc of certain vegetarian or vegan groups, or, about the topic of practicality as it relates to killing methods /costs, etc. I didn't start this thread to start discussion about practicality, government laws, or money. I'm seeking strictly moral analysis.

From a Catholic standpoint, do these human treatments of farm animals fall under the category of morality (good/evil)? Or are they morally neutral?

Intuitively and emotionally, I categorize them under "evil". If we intellectualize this issue, however, the categorization may or may not be the same.

I could not watch his video, sorry. I have watched many which have made me feel. physically ill. I have seen a video which showed live chickens put into a machine which basically processed live birds. I have seen a video when a baby pig foung unsuitable for rearing was held by its feet and its head slammed against a wall. It lay there still alive.

Its easier for some to just say your and my videos were doctored etc. I find it sickening and evil/ If you eat meat you should ensure the animals are killed swiftly and pailessly. Economics does not justify cruelty.

Flyingg · #7 Oct 7, '11, 4:22 am

This video is one among billions other recorded videos, and still its showing a little of what happens beyond the scenes. I'm in favor to respect and love all persons, humans or non humans. If 'evil' is not measured by harm and torture we cause to sensitive beings then what is evil?!

JD27076 · #8 Oct 7, '11, 4:38 am

I know I should not say this, ever. But, this made me cry so much. Anyone who does that. I dont care if he/she is employed. If ANYONE associated with this and supports this. I hope they BURN IN HELL! I hope they never see the day of light again....

Now do understand, killing animals for food is OK, but in this harsh of a way. NEVER. I believe in killing animals quickly and fast with no to any suffering for food. This is just Satanic.

JaneGrey · #9 Oct 7, '11, 6:31 am

Yes it is pure evil. What is terrible, but not necessarily evil, is when Christians try to justify such acts because they are 'isolated' or just 'animals'.

JaneGrey · #10 Oct 7, '11, 6:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD27076

I know I should not say this, ever. But, this made me cry so much. Anyone who does that. I dont care if he/she is employed. If ANYONE associated with this and supports this. I hope they BURN IN HELL! I hope they never see the day of light again....

Now do understand, killing animals for food is OK, but in this harsh of a way. NEVER. I believe in killing animals quickly and fast with no to any suffering for food. This is just Satanic.

Why should you not say that? I would worry about someone who felt nothing about this.

Newbie2 · #11 Oct 7, '11, 7:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rence

One would offer that the roosters could be rounded up and sent to a charity organization to feed the hungry, but again, it will cost more to grow them out than they are worth, making them worthless for even the hungry.

.

Ever eat rooster? Campbell's "chicken soup" has rooster in it, those gnarly, tasteless cubes of chicken meat are rooster. Bleeech.

Quote:

Originally Posted by severus68

I could not watch his video, sorry. I have watched many which have made me feel. physically ill. I have seen a video which showed live chickens put into a machine which basically processed live birds. I have seen a video when a baby pig foung unsuitable for rearing was held by its feet and its head slammed against a wall. It lay there still alive.

Its easier for some to just say your and my videos were doctored etc. I find it sickening and evil/ If you eat meat you should ensure the animals are killed swiftly and pailessly. Economics does not justify cruelty.

Suggestions on how to do this in an effective and not just a "feelgood" manner?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneGrey

Yes it is pure evil. What is terrible, but not necessarily evil, is when Christians try to justify such acts because they are 'isolated' or just 'animals'.

Many such practices have been developed in order to increase efficiency in animal product production. One or two things must happen in order to reverse such practices:

1) That alternate, more humane methods be developed in order to maintain the same or near the same economic efficiency.

2) That people accept paying a lot more for animal products produced in a more humane manner.

We also need to look critically at the methods shown in this video. For example, captive-bolt killing is humane when done correctly, CO2 killing is not painful (it is questionably humane, but not for reasons of causing pain), killing male chicks in a grinder causes instantaneous death, not unlike beheading them as adults.

Obviously, there is an agenda to this video, and obviously, in order to meet that agenda they will show the most aggregious examples of what they consider to be inhumane production and slaughter practices.

I'm not arguing that what they've shown is not inhumane, but they don't adequately address how certain techniques, for example the captive-bolt technique, which when done properly causes instantaneous loss of consciousness before the bleeding out ultimately causes death.

severus68 · #12 Oct 7, '11, 7:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneGrey

Why should you not say that? I would worry about someone who felt nothing about this.

Agreed.

severus68 · #13 Oct 7, '11, 7:58 am

[quote=Newbie2;8441775]

Quote:

Suggestions on how to do this in an effective and not just a "feelgood" manner?

"Feelgood manner"? I dont get your point. Since I do not eat meat, suggestions should come from those who do and would want the least possible suffering.

[

meltzerboy · #14 Oct 7, '11, 8:09 am

I can't speak to ancient times among the Jewish people, when animal sacrifice was practiced, since I don't know what method of killing was used. However, I do know Judaism believes that if animals are to be killed, the procedure must be humane as part of the kosher laws. That is, the sharpest needle, free of nicks, is to be used to inflict the least pain. This is also required in Islam. Most Torah Jews say that animals may be killed for food although some present an interesting case for vegetarianism according to the Law. Hunting for sport is strictly forbidden based on Torah teaching. Judaism also requires humane treatment of one's pets. For example, they must be fed first before feeding oneself or one's family since they lack the intellect to delay gratification. Some Torah Jews do not own dogs, taking their cue from a Biblical story, in which a dog caused a pregnant woman to miscarry. Others do own dogs, however. There is no injunction opposed to having a cat. There is also a Jewish tale that on the Day of Judgment for us humans, our pets will testify regarding whether or not we treated them with kindness and compassion.

JaneGrey · #15 Oct 7, '11, 11:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie2

Ever eat rooster? Campbell's "chicken soup" has rooster in it, those gnarly, tasteless cubes of chicken meat are rooster. Bleeech.

Suggestions on how to do this in an effective and not just a "feelgood" manner?

Many such practices have been developed in order to increase efficiency in animal product production. One or two things must happen in order to reverse such practices:

1) That alternate, more humane methods be developed in order to maintain the same or near the same economic efficiency.

2) That people accept paying a lot more for animal products produced in a more humane manner.

We also need to look critically at the methods shown in this video. For example, captive-bolt killing is humane when done correctly, CO2 killing is not painful (it is questionably humane, but not for reasons of causing pain), killing male chicks in a grinder causes instantaneous death, not unlike beheading them as adults.

Obviously, there is an agenda to this video, and obviously, in order to meet that agenda they will show the most aggregious examples of what they consider to be inhumane production and slaughter practices.
The presence of an agenda, if any, or these being isolated incidences, if they are, is irrelevant as it does not lessen the depravity of the act and make it less immoral in Christianity.
I'm not arguing that what they've shown is not inhumane, but they don't adequately address how certain techniques, for example the captive-bolt technique, which when done properly causes instantaneous loss of consciousness before the bleeding out ultimately causes death.

Bolding mine - seriously?? I cant imagine ever being convinced, but I would still honestly be grateful if as a vet you could explain to me how you know this to be true? I am asking because I heard there is a video out there of a kitten being killed in a blender and the mere thought has caused me to lose alot of sleep. It would be comforting to know that the act is not as painful as it looks, although I find it hard to believe.