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  #1  
Old Oct 15, '11, 7:29 pm
OneSheep OneSheep is offline
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Default How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Okay, folks, it's not love the sinner, hate the sin. It's" love the sinner, not the sin", and better yet, "love the sinner, forgive the sin"! Problem is, it is very difficult to forgive policies because they affect the future, and the future looks dismal when policies that go against our moral codes are in effect. We feel as if things are out of control, and it is very difficult to forgive when we have that notion.

I was adamantly against the war in Iraq, and I marched against it, wrote politicians, and did all I could to stop it from happening. I am also against the use of drones (if those things were flying around here, I would be part of the insurgency, though my style is diplomatic). I forgave Bush and Cheney almost every day, and I do the same with Obama, not only for continuing violent ways of resolving conflict, but for others reasons too.

When I was in a particularly judgmental mode, I went to a priest, who told me "it is not to condemn or condone, but understand." I took those words to heart. Jesus says, "seek, and you shall find." So understanding is possible! The problem is, what is the question, and when do you know that you have the answer? If I start with the question "Why does Bush seek to solve this problem militarily?" or "Why does Obama support abortion?" I have to seek, investigate, and probe their motives and awareness, as well as my own. Why would I do what he is doing? If my answer is "because he is evil, because he is stupid, because he is possessed, pandering, hypocritical, selfish, (anything negative)", then I am not understanding, I am still condemning. It is important for me to find their particular blindness, i.e. blindness to the humanity of the unborn, blindness to the humanity of those against us in the Middle East, etc, and the reason for the blindness. I am done when I can say, "If I had lived their experiences, had their (lack of ) awareness, I would enact the same policy."

Prayer in forgiving politicians is absolutely essential, and not just prayer for their enlightenment, but prayer for their well-being. Last, and not least, I have to do what I can to control the situation in order to forgive. I have to support adoption centers, write politicians, promote awareness of the unborn's humanity, support opposing politicians, support dialog with "enemies" such as Iranians, protest, do something to be in control, because it is very difficult to forgive when the situation seems hopeless.
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  #2  
Old Oct 15, '11, 7:55 pm
BigFellaMick BigFellaMick is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

nice post I agree with you. The only thing I'd disagree with is the enemies as "iranians" Id change that with american government and we'd be talking lol
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  #3  
Old Oct 15, '11, 10:09 pm
kubark kubark is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Race, Class, etc. - these things are not the problem. Sin is the problem. Man is not the enemy. Diabolos is the enemy.
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  #4  
Old Oct 15, '11, 10:10 pm
ANNE 2 ANNE 2 is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

There is no comparison between Obama and former President Bush. They should not even be mentioned in the same sentence.

Obama's support for the murder of 1 MILLION innocent babies in the USA each year, and his exporting of abortion by tying it to foreign aid is the worst civil rights violations this Country has ever seen.

Since Obama has been in office (Jan 2009) - - -
we are now in 3 wars, not 2;
average retail price of gas (which affects all consumer goods) has gone up 84%;
Corn has gone up 78%;
Soybeans have gone up 43%;
Unemployment up 23.7%;
Number of Federal Employees up 2.2%;
Long Term unemployed up 146%;
Failed banks up 17.1%:
People in poverty in US up 9.6%;
National DEBT up 32%.

Obama is the worst President the US has had in my lifetime.
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  #5  
Old Oct 15, '11, 11:46 pm
Semper Zelare Semper Zelare is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

What about how to forgive Osama bin Laden? I know I prayed for him a number of times.

Or, how to forgive the Moslem gunmen that tried to assassinate you, in the case of Blessed Pope John Paul the Great?

I think anyone would agree that both of those men are a lot harder to forgive than an American President.

But hey, OneSheep and BigFellaMic, if y'all are so fed up with the evils perpetrated by the American government, then I wouldn't start with Bush and Obama to spread that message. One of the compelling cases to a Catholic as to why the U.S. government is unjust or whatever is the bombing of the two towns with the most significant Catholic presence in Japan... Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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  #6  
Old Oct 16, '11, 10:06 am
Teelynn Teelynn is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANNE 2 View Post
There is no comparison between Obama and former President Bush. They should not even be mentioned in the same sentence.

Obama's support for the murder of 1 MILLION innocent babies in the USA each year, and his exporting of abortion by tying it to foreign aid is the worst civil rights violations this Country has ever seen.

Since Obama has been in office (Jan 2009) - - -
we are now in 3 wars, not 2;
average retail price of gas (which affects all consumer goods) has gone up 84%;
Corn has gone up 78%;
Soybeans have gone up 43%;
Unemployment up 23.7%;
Number of Federal Employees up 2.2%;
Long Term unemployed up 146%;
Failed banks up 17.1%:
People in poverty in US up 9.6%;
National DEBT up 32%.

Obama is the worst President the US has had in my lifetime.

Yes, I do believe he is. This is really a tough one, (the forgiveness part) that I too am required to battle, sometimes on a daily basis. I try to think of it this way........these people in power that put policies in place that are clearly anti life, anti catholic, and even anti Christian in general, are terribly misguided. I try to think of it as their motives are not bad, but their ideas are disastrous. They do not think with the same mindset as a Catholic Christian. Not coming from the same place.....not even close. We are on different planets entirely. If Obama is a Christian it is a different type of Christianity, something I am not at all familiar with. (really am not trying to be condescending here, but truthful)

I pray for the President and that helps, but it is a constant struggle with me. I have to keep reminding myself that "I" am not in charge...........The Lord God is in charge, so some of it (with me anyway) is pride. Yep, nasty ol' pride rearing it's ugly head. I am constantly giving the state of the country over to the Lord. Sometimes, I cannot even watch the news or read the paper, so that I can have a period of peace.
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  #7  
Old Oct 16, '11, 2:20 pm
OneSheep OneSheep is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFellaMick View Post
nice post I agree with you. The only thing I'd disagree with is the enemies as "iranians" Id change that with american government and we'd be talking lol
Well, this thread is about forgiveness, so I put "enemies" in quotes because once we forgive, are they still our enemies? Once real reconciliation takes place, I would say they are no longer enemies. Most of the time, it takes forgiveness in order to reconcile...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kubark View Post
Race, Class, etc. - these things are not the problem. Sin is the problem. Man is not the enemy. Diabolos is the enemy.
Makes it a quandary, doesn't it? Jesus asks us to forgive our enemies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANNE 2 View Post
There is no comparison between Obama and former President Bush. They should not even be mentioned in the same sentence.
Obama is the worst President the US has had in my lifetime.
The only comparison I make is that I have resented their actions, which means it is time to forgive. If Obama is to be blamed for all the statistics you mentioned, then I suppose that is a call to forgive him for each one. Are you following my methodology? What would you add to "how to forgive"? This thread is about forgiveness, and if we are not called to forgive trespasses we resent, then what on Earth is there to forgive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper Zelare View Post
What about how to forgive Osama bin Laden? I know I prayed for him a number of times.

Or, how to forgive the Moslem gunmen that tried to assassinate you, in the case of Blessed Pope John Paul the Great?

I think anyone would agree that both of those men are a lot harder to forgive than an American President.

But hey, OneSheep and BigFellaMic, if y'all are so fed up with the evils perpetrated by the American government, then I wouldn't start with Bush and Obama to spread that message. One of the compelling cases to a Catholic as to why the U.S. government is unjust or whatever is the bombing of the two towns with the most significant Catholic presence in Japan... Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The "message" is forgiveness. And yes, we should forgive our government for nuking Japan too. Pope John Paul is definitely an inspiration to me, thanks for mentioning his name. And check my thread on forgiving Osama bin Laden! Plenty of people to forgive, and not just in our nation's government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teelynn View Post
I try to think of it this way........these people in power that put policies in place that are clearly anti life, anti catholic, and even anti Christian in general, are terribly misguided. I try to think of it as their motives are not bad, but their ideas are disastrous. They do not think with the same mindset as a Catholic Christian. Not coming from the same place.....not even close. We are on different planets entirely. If Obama is a Christian it is a different type of Christianity, something I am not at all familiar with. (really am not trying to be condescending here, but truthful)

I pray for the President and that helps, but it is a constant struggle with me. I have to keep reminding myself that "I" am not in charge...........The Lord God is in charge, so some of it (with me anyway) is pride. Yep, nasty ol' pride rearing it's ugly head. I am constantly giving the state of the country over to the Lord. Sometimes, I cannot even watch the news or read the paper, so that I can have a period of peace.
Thanks for the added insights and for sharing the struggle to forgive. I like your use of "misguided"; life provides experiences, and experiences are our guides, but also lead to our blindness. We can certainly "take charge" of forgiving. God doesn't do it for us, but He certainly forgives all the politicians long before we do. And if pride is our enemy, we can forgive that too. I'll have to consider starting a thread on that. If by "pride" you mean wanting to be in control, that impulse is in itself a gift from God. It seems to me that we can be aware of it, accept it, and try not to be enslaved by it, or we can demonize it and remain divided against our nature.
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  #8  
Old Oct 16, '11, 4:05 pm
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Corki Corki is online now
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

I think the time for forgiveness is when the sin is in the past. Otherwise, it's enabling. We can forgive Bush since he isn't president anymore. We can forgive Osama Saddam and the 9/11 terrorists for their past acts. For Obama, we can pray for him and also pray that when his time is over and the damage done, we will be able to forgive him.
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  #9  
Old Oct 16, '11, 8:05 pm
OneSheep OneSheep is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
I think the time for forgiveness is when the sin is in the past. Otherwise, it's enabling. We can forgive Bush since he isn't president anymore. We can forgive Osama Saddam and the 9/11 terrorists for their past acts. For Obama, we can pray for him and also pray that when his time is over and the damage done, we will be able to forgive him.
Excellent observation! This is exactly one of the reasons, I think, that people don't want to forgive. If we forgive, we lose the resentment, and let's face it, resentment motivates!! So if we forgive the politician, then we have to rely on compassion alone to make social changes. Also, if the politician has our acceptance, then it may seem that he is not as motivated to change!

To me, however, this is what "turning the other cheek" is all about. Disregarding the story of the master and the servant, (if the servant forgave the fellow servant, then it would encourage him, which he didn't want) the idea behind turning the other cheek is to change the tone of the situation, to build the kingdom rather than continue the eye-for-an-eye that our nature compels us to do. If I forgive Obama instead of condemning him, he will feel compelled to react in kind. Because I am considerate of his well-being, he will consider mine; we are mimetic creatures. Call it the "law of attraction" if you like, but Jesus knew about it long before the new-age types named it so.

I think forgiveness is its own reward for our spiritual well-being.
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  #10  
Old Oct 17, '11, 3:35 am
ANNE 2 ANNE 2 is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

We must never tolerate sin.
Even the sins of the current President.
Jesus did not tolerate sin.

Forgiving the person is not the same as TOLERATING his sins.


CCC - " 2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged."

CCC - " 1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies."
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  #11  
Old Oct 18, '11, 10:32 am
Teelynn Teelynn is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANNE 2 View Post
We must never tolerate sin.
Even the sins of the current President.
Jesus did not tolerate sin.

Forgiving the person is not the same as TOLERATING his sins.


CCC - " 2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged."

CCC - " 1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies."

Excellent point. We MUST and I believe are OBLIGATED to call him or anyone else in the public sector out on his or their misguidings. We must above all defend morality of every kind whether it be economic or life and culture issues. And defend it so that they can hear us.
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  #12  
Old Oct 18, '11, 2:04 pm
OneSheep OneSheep is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANNE 2 View Post
We must never tolerate sin.
Even the sins of the current President.
Jesus did not tolerate sin.

Forgiving the person is not the same as TOLERATING his sins.
I agree completely. Forgiveness can cause a person to be more tolerant, but that can be an error. If our cause is truly centered in love, then that love will motivate us to continue to defend a cause. If not, we are just clanging bells anyway.

People resist forgiving because they think that it is unjust to forgive, but Jesus wants us to forgive anyway; the pursuit of justice can itself be an enslaving aspect of our nature.

What forgiveness does is adjust the way that we pursue defense of a cause. For example, if I forgive abortion doctors, I am not going to shoot them or threaten violence in order to stop abortions, I will pursue means that don't involve punishment, such as education, peaceful resistance, legislation, and dialog. After all, people that participate in abortion are "good" people, just like me; they just have (specifically) a different awareness and value set. I am not condoning their actions or tolerating what they do, I am only explaining my understanding of the situation.

Jesus did not tolerate sin. For example, he forgave money changers, but did what he could to stop money-changing from happening in the temple.
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  #13  
Old Nov 7, '12, 1:00 pm
OneSheep OneSheep is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSheep View Post
Okay, folks, it's not love the sinner, hate the sin. It's" love the sinner, not the sin", and better yet, "love the sinner, forgive the sin"! Problem is, it is very difficult to forgive policies because they affect the future, and the future looks dismal when policies that go against our moral codes are in effect. We feel as if things are out of control, and it is very difficult to forgive when we have that notion.

I was adamantly against the war in Iraq, and I marched against it, wrote politicians, and did all I could to stop it from happening. I am also against the use of drones (if those things were flying around here, I would be part of the insurgency, though my style is diplomatic). I forgave Bush and Cheney almost every day, and I do the same with Obama, not only for continuing violent ways of resolving conflict, but for others reasons too.

When I was in a particularly judgmental mode, I went to a priest, who told me "it is not to condemn or condone, but understand." I took those words to heart. Jesus says, "seek, and you shall find." So understanding is possible! The problem is, what is the question, and when do you know that you have the answer? If I start with the question "Why does Bush seek to solve this problem militarily?" or "Why does Obama support abortion?" I have to seek, investigate, and probe their motives and awareness, as well as my own. Why would I do what he is doing? If my answer is "because he is evil, because he is stupid, because he is possessed, pandering, hypocritical, selfish, (anything negative)", then I am not understanding, I am still condemning. It is important for me to find their particular blindness, i.e. blindness to the humanity of the unborn, blindness to the humanity of those against us in the Middle East, etc, and the reason for the blindness. I am done when I can say, "If I had lived their experiences, had their (lack of ) awareness, I would enact the same policy."

Prayer in forgiving politicians is absolutely essential, and not just prayer for their enlightenment, but prayer for their well-being. Last, and not least, I have to do what I can to control the situation in order to forgive. I have to support adoption centers, write politicians, promote awareness of the unborn's humanity, support opposing politicians, support dialog with "enemies" such as Iranians, protest, do something to be in control, because it is very difficult to forgive when the situation seems hopeless.
I have run across a few angry people today, so I thought this thread might be appropriate for the time. We not only have politicians to forgive, but also all the people who voted for the ones we oppose.

We can't give up on making a difference in our nation and the world just because our favorite politician didn't get into office. Making a difference is a matter of building awareness, so let's keep doing that!!
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  #14  
Old Nov 8, '12, 4:34 am
mercytruth mercytruth is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSheep View Post
Okay, folks, it's not love the sinner, hate the sin. It's" love the sinner, not the sin", and better yet, "love the sinner, forgive the sin"! Problem is, it is very difficult to forgive policies because they affect the future, and the future looks dismal when policies that go against our moral codes are in effect. We feel as if things are out of control, and it is very difficult to forgive when we have that notion.

I was adamantly against the war in Iraq, and I marched against it, wrote politicians, and did all I could to stop it from happening. I am also against the use of drones (if those things were flying around here, I would be part of the insurgency, though my style is diplomatic). I forgave Bush and Cheney almost every day, and I do the same with Obama, not only for continuing violent ways of resolving conflict, but for others reasons too.

When I was in a particularly judgmental mode, I went to a priest, who told me "it is not to condemn or condone, but understand." I took those words to heart. Jesus says, "seek, and you shall find." So understanding is possible! The problem is, what is the question, and when do you know that you have the answer? If I start with the question "Why does Bush seek to solve this problem militarily?" or "Why does Obama support abortion?" I have to seek, investigate, and probe their motives and awareness, as well as my own. Why would I do what he is doing? If my answer is "because he is evil, because he is stupid, because he is possessed, pandering, hypocritical, selfish, (anything negative)", then I am not understanding, I am still condemning. It is important for me to find their particular blindness, i.e. blindness to the humanity of the unborn, blindness to the humanity of those against us in the Middle East, etc, and the reason for the blindness. I am done when I can say, "If I had lived their experiences, had their (lack of ) awareness, I would enact the same policy."

Prayer in forgiving politicians is absolutely essential, and not just prayer for their enlightenment, but prayer for their well-being. Last, and not least, I have to do what I can to control the situation in order to forgive. I have to support adoption centers, write politicians, promote awareness of the unborn's humanity, support opposing politicians, support dialog with "enemies" such as Iranians, protest, do something to be in control, because it is very difficult to forgive when the situation seems hopeless.
I am so with you on this one. I too, did all that I could to prevent the invasion of Iraq. Not only did I write all the Senators, I also wrote all the Catholic bishops. It took me a long time to get over what I thought was 'righteous' anger. But maybe it was not righteous anger, maybe it was infiltrated with spiritual pride.

The only way is to forgive and to pray for those who we perceive to be our enemies of our ideological, religious and spiritual convictions. Anger and unforgiveness will hamper the Spirit of God in our lives. We will not know the peace of God.

Thank you so much for sharing with us.

God's peace be with you

micah
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  #15  
Old Nov 8, '12, 5:00 am
AlanFromWichita AlanFromWichita is offline
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Default Re: How to forgive Obama, how to forgive Bush

Dear OneSheep,

This is a great thread. I didn't notice it before, or I surely would have commented on it.

Seems we think alike on some things, including fretting and fuming over politics, compared with the power that is in us in Jesus's name.

We worry about evil, and that disturbs our peace. But that disturbance itself indicates we must not fully embrace the teachings of Jesus, because He gives us unconditional peace that the world can neither give nor take away.

1 John 4:4-6
You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them. We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.


Alan
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