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  #1  
Old Oct 21, '11, 8:37 am
PiousTemplar PiousTemplar is offline
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Default Am I excommunicated?

I was in an argument with someone bashing my favourite Catholic apologist, claiming he was 'unauthorized' and therefore preaching lies and things contrary to Catholic doctrine. His friend joined in and claimed that he was excommunicated by the Church.The person in particular who they were bashing was Michael Voris. I tried to defend him, but I ended up deliberately lying about Canon Law and what it says (Just at first, I claimed that Canon Law says you didn't have to be assigned with a certain diocese to be approved, just be supported by a Bishop. This is wrong). The guy in the argument was talking like the USCCB was the Vatican, and in anger I accused the USCCB as being a left wing liberal organisation that produces watered-down articles and documents about the faith. The argument evolved and eventually I was saying that the USCCB was not an authoritative body, making what the USCCB said about Michael Voris being irrelevant.

I quoted
Quote:
Can. 455 1. A conference of bishops can only issue general decrees in cases where universal law has prescribed it or a special mandate of the Apostolic See has established it either motu proprio or at the request of the conference itself.

2. The decrees mentioned in 1, in order to be enacted validly in a plenary meeting, must be passed by at least a two thirds vote of the prelates who belong to the conference and possess a deliberative vote. They do not obtain binding force unless they have been legitimately promulgated after having been reviewed by the Apostolic See.

3. The conference of bishops itself determines the manner of promulgation and the time when the decrees take effect.

4. In cases in which neither universal law nor a special mandate of the Apostolic See has granted the power mentioned in 1 to a conference of bishops, the competence of each diocesan bishop remains intact, nor is a conference or its president able to act in the name of all the bishops unless each and every bishop has given consent.
He claimed that I was a cafeteria Catholic for not accepting the USCCB's 'teachings'. I became really annoyed at this and argued that the USCCB does not have 'teachings' but 'opinions' on various teachings which a Catholic is allowed to accept or not. He claimed that I was accusing the USCCB of giving 'watered down teachings' when I repeatedly said to him I was referring to the documents and articles it produced, not what it 'teaches' because the USCCB does not have 'teachings' the magisterium does. I'm just mostly worried about myself lying about Canon Law!

Am I excommunicated because I lied about Canon Law to him? I was wrong on several things, could be more, but I really am sorry. I was just in a bad mood and I don't know what to do next. In summary I claimed that the USCCB does not have authority as an organisation, and he said it does. I said that the USCCB gives watered down articles, etc about Catholic teaching. He then claimed that I was saying that the teachings the USCCB give us are 'watered down'. I again affirmed that the USCCB does not give teachings and dogmas and to think so is heresy and that the USCCB gives opinions on things on which we are free to decide to accept or not accept.

Sorry!
  #2  
Old Oct 21, '11, 8:52 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

No, you are not.

You sound like you may tend towards scrupulosity, so please talk to a priest.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
  #3  
Old Oct 21, '11, 9:12 am
PiousTemplar PiousTemplar is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

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Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
No, you are not.

You sound like you may tend towards scrupulosity, so please talk to a priest.
Sorry I just thought that teaching error was excommunication. Sorry it was really bad of me to be so bitter about the usccb!
  #4  
Old Oct 21, '11, 9:53 am
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Swiss Guy Swiss Guy is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

What's wrong with the USCCB? I don't think they are too left wing. What makes you say that?
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  #5  
Old Oct 21, '11, 10:02 am
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Scoobyshme Scoobyshme is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiousTemplar View Post
I was in an argument with someone bashing my favourite Catholic apologist, claiming he was 'unauthorized' and therefore preaching lies and things contrary to Catholic doctrine. His friend joined in and claimed that he was excommunicated by the Church.The person in particular who they were bashing was Michael Voris. I tried to defend him, but I ended up deliberately lying about Canon Law and what it says (Just at first, I claimed that Canon Law says you didn't have to be assigned with a certain diocese to be approved, just be supported by a Bishop. This is wrong). The guy in the argument was talking like the USCCB was the Vatican, and in anger I accused the USCCB as being a left wing liberal organisation that produces watered-down articles and documents about the faith. The argument evolved and eventually I was saying that the USCCB was not an authoritative body, making what the USCCB said about Michael Voris being irrelevant.

I quoted

He claimed that I was a cafeteria Catholic for not accepting the USCCB's 'teachings'. I became really annoyed at this and argued that the USCCB does not have 'teachings' but 'opinions' on various teachings which a Catholic is allowed to accept or not. He claimed that I was accusing the USCCB of giving 'watered down teachings' when I repeatedly said to him I was referring to the documents and articles it produced, not what it 'teaches' because the USCCB does not have 'teachings' the magisterium does. I'm just mostly worried about myself lying about Canon Law!

Am I excommunicated because I lied about Canon Law to him? I was wrong on several things, could be more, but I really am sorry. I was just in a bad mood and I don't know what to do next. In summary I claimed that the USCCB does not have authority as an organisation, and he said it does. I said that the USCCB gives watered down articles, etc about Catholic teaching. He then claimed that I was saying that the teachings the USCCB give us are 'watered down'. I again affirmed that the USCCB does not give teachings and dogmas and to think so is heresy and that the USCCB gives opinions on things on which we are free to decide to accept or not accept.

Sorry!
Okay. A couple of points here...

1. The USCCB is not, by itself, the Magisterium of the Church. The Magisterium of the Church is the Pope and (all) the bishops in union with him. IF the USCCB teaches anything contrary to what the Church teaches, then there is a problem, but it's not with you. It's with them.

2. Heresy is defined as the post-baptismal, obstinate denial of a truth which must be believed with Divine and Catholic faith, or likewise, it is to hold an obstinate doubt about the same. This implies that you know what the Church teachings, have been baptized, and reject the teaching.

So, to answer your question... Is the USCCB teaching something that the Church teaches, and you obstinately reject it? If so, then you are technically a heretic and automatically excommunicated (latae sententiae). This would have to be a willful act, not an accident.
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  #6  
Old Oct 21, '11, 10:02 am
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Swiss Guy Swiss Guy is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiousTemplar View Post
I was in an argument with someone bashing my favourite Catholic apologist, claiming he was 'unauthorized' and therefore preaching lies and things contrary to Catholic doctrine. His friend joined in and claimed that he was excommunicated by the Church.The person in particular who they were bashing was Michael Voris. I tried to defend him, but I ended up deliberately lying about Canon Law and what it says (Just at first, I claimed that Canon Law says you didn't have to be assigned with a certain diocese to be approved, just be supported by a Bishop. This is wrong). The guy in the argument was talking like the USCCB was the Vatican, and in anger I accused the USCCB as being a left wing liberal organisation that produces watered-down articles and documents about the faith. The argument evolved and eventually I was saying that the USCCB was not an authoritative body, making what the USCCB said about Michael Voris being irrelevant.

I quoted

He claimed that I was a cafeteria Catholic for not accepting the USCCB's 'teachings'. I became really annoyed at this and argued that the USCCB does not have 'teachings' but 'opinions' on various teachings which a Catholic is allowed to accept or not. He claimed that I was accusing the USCCB of giving 'watered down teachings' when I repeatedly said to him I was referring to the documents and articles it produced, not what it 'teaches' because the USCCB does not have 'teachings' the magisterium does. I'm just mostly worried about myself lying about Canon Law!

Am I excommunicated because I lied about Canon Law to him? I was wrong on several things, could be more, but I really am sorry. I was just in a bad mood and I don't know what to do next. In summary I claimed that the USCCB does not have authority as an organisation, and he said it does. I said that the USCCB gives watered down articles, etc about Catholic teaching. He then claimed that I was saying that the teachings the USCCB give us are 'watered down'. I again affirmed that the USCCB does not give teachings and dogmas and to think so is heresy and that the USCCB gives opinions on things on which we are free to decide to accept or not accept.

Sorry!
Another thing: the USCCB reflects what the Magisterium teaches and (in documents like the faithful citizenship guide) applies the teachings and dogmas to our situations in America. So the USCCB should be taken seriously and not just brushed off, because the bishops are the authority.
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  #7  
Old Oct 21, '11, 10:03 am
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Swiss Guy Swiss Guy is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiousTemplar View Post
Sorry it was really bad of me to be so bitter about the usccb!
It's ok.
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  #8  
Old Oct 21, '11, 10:26 am
Just Lurking Just Lurking is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

The teaching authority of the USCCB comes from this canon:

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.
  #9  
Old Oct 21, '11, 10:43 am
SteveGC SteveGC is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

What did the USCCB say about Voris?
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  #10  
Old Oct 21, '11, 12:05 pm
fall fox fall fox is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

[quote=PiousTemplar;8488031]Sorry I just thought that teaching error was excommunication. Sorry it was really bad of me to be so bitter about the usccb!

fall fox

We Catholics have no say in the guidance of the Magisterium. It is no wonder we get our dander up when we see problems. The USCCB always has to defer to the Vatican, so what we get from the USCCB has been approved by the Vatican.
The Vatican has tried things with the faith that are still causing problems with us, our Priests, and our Bishops. For example, the use of glass for sacred vessels, it has been about 6 years that the indult was taken away for the use of glass. Another is the Purification of the sacred vessels saying that the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are permitted to perform this Rite of the Church, this indult has been removed some time ago. I see both the glass vessels being used and I know that EMHC are still performing the Purification Rite and the Pastors are aware of the changes but are not obeying the Magisterium. In a way, we are too knowledgeable for our own good, we have all sorts of information available to us that puts us in conflict with other Catholics and even our priests that are not doing what they should be doing. This was just a couple examples, what are we to do about this kind of priest?
I have one that doesn't want to do the dishes on the Alter???
  #11  
Old Oct 21, '11, 12:22 pm
Lapey Lapey is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiousTemplar View Post
The argument evolved and eventually I was saying that the USCCB was not an authoritative body, making what the USCCB said about Michael Voris being irrelevant.
On its own, the USCCB is not an authoritative body, only through the Holy See and Church Doctrine is the conference an authority. What I mean is, the USCCB cannot do or say anything contrary to the magisteriem and/or Tradtion.

When was Micheal Voris excommunicated???? That's news to me.
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  #12  
Old Oct 21, '11, 2:25 pm
Kielbasi Kielbasi is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

If you have to ask, the answer is "no".

Quote:
Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:
1/ a person who has not yet completed the sixteenth year of age;
2/ a person who without negligence was ignorant that he or she violated a law or precept; inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance;
  #13  
Old Oct 21, '11, 6:27 pm
PiousTemplar PiousTemplar is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

I was not rejecting Church teaching! I was simply bitter and said it's left wing because of the amount of times I have read it's supported unorthodox programs and let non-catholics work for them! I was referring to the documents in particular the document it gave out during the American election which most catholics said watered down Catholic teaching. I was not referring to Catholic teachings itself! I promise I abide all Catholic dogmas! I simply lied about Canon Law when arguing with someone because I was annoyed and angry!
  #14  
Old Oct 21, '11, 6:30 pm
PiousTemplar PiousTemplar is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapey View Post
On its own, the USCCB is not an authoritative body, only through the Holy See and Church Doctrine is the conference an authority. What I mean is, the USCCB cannot do or say anything contrary to the magisteriem and/or Tradtion.

When was Micheal Voris excommunicated???? That's news to me.
He wasn't excommunicated that's what he was saying to bash Michael Voris. I was saying that the USCCB does not have authority in itself, which I changed but didn't admit it to 'the USCCB does not have authority over other Bishops unless they are passing some legislation with the approval of the Holy See'.
  #15  
Old Oct 22, '11, 2:02 am
PiousTemplar PiousTemplar is offline
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Default Re: Am I excommunicated?

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