Views on Mormonism?

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by NewSeeker

Yes, Thomas Aquinas relied upon Aristotle to develop a distinctly Christian philosophy of the First Cause and Prime Mover. Thomas lived centuries after the trinitarian dogma was first propounded. My original question still stands, Parker. Your assumption is that trinitarianism came from Aristotle. If true, this development must have occurred prior to the 3rd Century (of course, we know trinitarianism is part of the Christian Revelation, but let's explore your position further and assume, for the sake of argument, that it is not). Can you demonstrate this development with documentary evidence and name the Christian philosopher(s) who is/are responsible? Or is this development just an assumption on your part?

NewSeeker,

I suppose one could call it an assumption. As you are probably aware, the word that became translated to "Trinity" was not in use before 150 AD or so. The words of the Nicene Creed, being non-Biblical in the very important description of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, shows that there was a development of what you called a "dogma".

I looked today at an article by Stephen Robinson in the LDS Ensign magazine that discussed the Greek philosophy influence on the Trinitarian doctrine. But it doesn't "name the Christian philosopher responsible"--it's just evident in the outcome.

[RebeccaJ]

Originally Posted by mtolympus

I believe that both Catholics and Mormons agree on one thing, that Stephen was a martyr.

Mormons define "martyr" differently so I don't know if that is saying much.

Debby Downers? I don't know what that means, but I'm sure that is not the worst name we have been called. Maybe we are making some progress!

Debbie Downer is a name of a fictional Saturday Night Live character which debuted in 2004, and who was portrayed by Rachel Dratch. In Debbie's first appearance, she is given the last name Matousek.

The character's name is a slang phrase which refers to someone who frequently adds bad news and negative feelings to a gathering, thus bringing down the mood of everyone around them. Dratch's character would usually appear at social gatherings and interrupt the conversation to voice negative opinions and pronouncements. She is especially concerned about the rate of Feline AIDS, a subject that she would bring up on more than one occasion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Downer

Mormons are especially concerned about a mythical great apostasy.

[Denise1957]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Denise,

Yes, the example of that passage about Stephen is commonly cited, and disproves the Catholic view of the Trinity, except for those who explain away the simple concept of the Father being seen, with His glorified body, and the Son being seen, with His glorified body. It means that when Jesus said He was like His Father, He meant it.



I would say that the words "a few aspects" would be more correct.



Acts 7:51 is specific about the Jewish leaders and about "as your fathers did, so do ye." That is talking about individuals and their receiving a testimony of truth, or not--because they resisted the Holy Ghost, and thus didn't believe in Jesus Christ who had fulfilled the prophecy of Moses as Stephen cited as recorded in Acts 7:37 and 52. It was all the more important because Stephen was talking to the Jewish leaders, and they of course were supposed to know the scriptures and the promises, and supposed to heed the guidance of the Spirit of the Lord and lead the Jews in the way of truth.



They were aware of the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the "still small voice", in their scriptural heritage, and would have been able to relate those teachings to the term used by the Savior of the "Holy Ghost", or "Holy Spirit". See for example Mark 12:36 about a prophecy of David which Jesus was teaching that David "said by the Holy Ghost".

I probably didn't make my question clear earlier regarding St. Stephen, and why he is so important to Mormons in relation to what you said about St. Stephen emphasizing the importance of the Holy Ghost as a testifyer of truth to individual people. I can't see that St. Stephen emphasizes the Holy Ghost as a testifying of truth to individual people. that's what I was looking for. St. Stephen of course relates that the Jewish leaders are resisting the Holy Ghost, but he does not place an emphasis specifically the testifying of truth to individuals by the Holy Ghost.

Is it that Mormons see an importance to 'individual' truths being given to people by the Holy Ghost? Because I'm not seeing that St. Stephen is relating or emphasizing individualism at all.

[mtolympus]

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

Mormons define "martyr" differently so I don't know if that is saying much.

Oh Rebecca, I was trying to say something uplifting and positive here. Don't be a Debbie Downer!

[mtolympus]

Originally Posted by truthsave

there is something that you forget when you talk about Act 11:26
They were following Christ's teaching, you mormon follow what you think is Christ's teaching through Joseph Smith. It is not the same thing!

Niether you or I will ever prove which of us is really following Christ's teachings. However, the non-believers of Antioch likely knew little about Christ's teachings when they called the disciples of Jesus "Christians". You prove from the Bible that the disciples were called "Catholics", and I will prove from the Bible that they were called "Saints." We will then know whether Catholics or Latter-day Saints are the real Christians.

[Miriam1947]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Hi, bz5,

'Hope you are well.

You may be familiar that Latter-day Saints believe that when Jesus said "except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter..." (John 3:5) that He wasn't making exceptions, and thus baptism for the dead is very much necessary for the opportunity for its acceptance to be offered to those who didn't have the full opportunity. My family has had personal experiences to know that there are impressions given from ancestors to find them and have their temple work completed, and we (including I with research I have been blessed to be able to do) have been led to indeed find the necessary record about them.

Parker this is beyond hypocritical. Your group baptized priests!! You've baptized Pope John Paul II six times!! That is outrageous.

[Miriam1947]

Originally Posted by mtolympus

Niether you or I will ever prove which of us is really following Christ's teachings. However, the non-believers of Antioch likely knew little about Christ's teachings when they called the disciples of Jesus "Christians". You prove from the Bible that the disciples were called "Catholics", and I will prove from the Bible that they were called "Saints." We will then know whether Catholics or Latter-day Saints are the real Christians.

The saints in the Bible have absolutely no relation to your present name. Latter-day Saints is a way to quietly renounce Mormonism as the name of your religion.

[Miriam1947]

Originally Posted by Miriam1947

Parker this is beyond hypocritical. Your group baptized priests!! You've baptized Pope John Paul II six times!! That is outrageous.

http://www.salamandersociety.com/tem..._II_mormon.pdf

http://www.salamandersociety.com/tem...emple_baptism/

[mtolympus]

Originally Posted by Miriam1947

The saints in the Bible have absolutely no relation to your present name. Latter-day Saints is a way to quietly renounce Mormonism.

The term Saints in the Bible was what members of Jesus' church called themselves. Many of Pauls epistles were addressed to the "Saints." I realize that the term has a very different meaning in you church today. The name of our church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe was received by revelation. The term Latter-day Saints was to distiguish members of Jesus' latter-day church from members of His church of New Testament times.
The name "Mormons" was given to Latter-day Saints by non-members, much in the same way that the name "Christians" was given to the former Saints by non-believers.

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by Denise1957

I probably didn't make my question clear earlier regarding St. Stephen, and why he is so important to Mormons in relation to what you said about St. Stephen emphasizing the importance of the Holy Ghost as a testifyer of truth to individual people. I can't see that St. Stephen emphasizes the Holy Ghost as a testifying of truth to individual people. that's what I was looking for. St. Stephen of course relates that the Jewish leaders are resisting the Holy Ghost, but he does not place an emphasis specifically the testifying of truth to individuals by the Holy Ghost.

Is it that Mormons see an importance to 'individual' truths being given to people by the Holy Ghost? Because I'm not seeing that St. Stephen is relating or emphasizing individualism at all.

Denise,

What the Jewish leaders had missed out on is understanding Moses' prophecy, which they should have understood by hearkening to the Holy Ghost, and that prophecy was the prophecy about the "prophet like unto Moses", who was Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost testifies of the reality of Jesus Christ. Just because Stephen said "ye" doesn't mean he wasn't addressing each individual there--on the contrary, he was addressing each individual there.

Yes, Latter-day Saints do see an importance to individual truths being given to people by the Holy Ghost, the most important of which is the knowledge that Jesus is the living Christ, the Son of the living God, and that He fulfilled or will yet fulfill all the Messianic prophecies including of His coming to reign on earth in the Millennium.

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by Miriam1947

Parker this is beyond hypocritical. Your group baptized priests!! You've baptized Pope John Paul II six times!! That is outrageous.

Miriam,

I take no responsibility for those errors in both judgment and not following the rules of submission for ordinances. I was not involved in any way.

[Denise1957]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Denise,

What the Jewish leaders had missed out on is understanding Moses' prophecy, which they should have understood by hearkening to the Holy Ghost, and that prophecy was the prophecy about the "prophet like unto Moses", who was Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost testifies of the reality of Jesus Christ. Just because Stephen said "ye" doesn't mean he wasn't addressing each individual there--on the contrary, he was addressing each individual there.

Yes, Latter-day Saints do see an importance to individual truths being given to people by the Holy Ghost, the most important of which is the knowledge that Jesus is the living Christ, the Son of the living God, and that He fulfilled or will yet fulfill all the Messianic prophecies including of His coming to reign on earth in the Millennium.

Thanks, Parker, for taking the time to respond to my question. But I see that it's quite a stretch of the imagination to say or think that St. Stephen was emphasizing the Holy Ghost giving truths to 'individuals,' as you have previously said. He does not say this at all.

I understand that LDS do see an importance to individual truths being given to people by the Holy Ghost. But again, St. Stephen does not mention any sort of individualism.
Any sort of supposed individualism by St. Stephen has to be inferred, because he himself does not address this issue specifically.

[mwok]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

mwok,

It was indeed the temptation that Satan used to Eve only (not to Adam) that "your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

I find it always interesting that people use Satan's temptation as their teacher about what God had as His plan for humankind. I think that is an unhelpful way to look at being taught by the Bible--to stop with those words and say now one knows the will of God on the subject.

But that is what consistently happens. People will not take the many, many passages that talk about becoming like Christ, becoming a joint heir with Him, being made "ruler over many things" through learning complete unselfishness, unconditional love, and the kind of faith described in Hebrews 11. Instead, they dwell on the temptation of Satan who thus becomes the teacher and they say, "That's the way it is, and that's all, folks--Satan knows why we are here, and was being perfectly truthful as always." (Not my way of looking at the way Satan tempts, at all--his way is to always deceive, always.)

So will Adam and Eve become gods?

I also think that it is interesting that the Mormon church teaches that if Satan had not tempted Eve, we would not have bodies. So, big high five to Satan? or is the Mormon church wrong on that matter?

[mwok]

Originally Posted by mtolympus

Let me take one point at a time. My purpose is not to prove our doctrine to you, but only to show that Mormons do believe the Bible.

The Holy Ghost gives comfort, power, and understanding of truth that supersedes the natural or mortal level. Mary, Elisabeth, and John were each fulfilling very different purposes for God when the Holy Ghost came upon them. It was the Holy Ghost that gave them the power and understanding that was required to accomplish their missions. "You will receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you." (Acts 1:8)

Brigham Young was correct. Jesus is not the son of the Holy Ghost, even though in Matthew he was called “child of the Holy Ghost.” (Matt. 1:18) John the Baptist’s birth was also a miracle, for his mother Elisabeth was barren, and both of his parents were “well stricken in years.” (Luke 1:7) John “was filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) Therefore, John might also be called a child of the Holy Ghost, even though Zacharias is his father. Jesus is “the only begotten of the Father” (John 1:14) and “shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is not the same as being born of the Holy Spirit.

[Stephen168]

Originally Posted by mtolympus

I guess that means we are Christians after all!

No, Joseph Smith lead his followers into Apostasy and they reject the God of the New Testament.