Posture after the Agnus Dei

[OraLabora]

Originally Posted by centurionguard

Increasingly across Canadian Dioceses, parishes are now without kneelers which sadly is a growing trend.

My present Parish built in 1882 is virtually the only surviving parish which still has usuable kneelers. And yes we still kneel at the consecration, though some visitors in the congregation choose to stand. Fact is though there's talk about having the Kneelers removed altogether.

In French Quebec it has never been common practice to kneel after the Agnus Dei, for as long as I can remember. We kneel at the consecration, and again after communion.

All of the churches in my locale have kneelers. The only person I know who stands at the consecration at the abbey where I go to Mass, is a Ukrainian Catholic; fwiw he also crosses himself the "wrong" way, three times at a shot

Typically I sit in the first pew at the abbey because I like to chant along with the monks, and that pew doesn't have kneelers. I kneel on the granite floor. I will keep doing that for as long as my creaky knees will allow it. But as for posture I follow the (very orthodox) monks and they don't kneel after the Agnus Dei either.

[JGMendes4049]

This discussion only concerns the provision for the diocesan bishops in the diocese of the United States of America to determine that the faithful should not kneel after the Agnus Dei. There is no such provision in Canada, so there's no need to discuss that. I have quoted the Latin (universal) GIRM and the English GIRMs with adaptations for Canada and the United States for your perusal:

Latin GIRM:

[43.] Est tamen Conferentiae Episcoporum, gestus et corporis habitus in Ordine Missæ descriptos ingenio et rationabilibus populorum traditionibus ad normam iuris aptare. Attendendum tamen erit, ut sensui et indoli cuiusque partis celebrationis respondeant. Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur.

United States GIRM:

[43.] In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

Canadian GIRM:

[43.] In the dioceses of Canada, the faithful should kneel at the Consecration, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain kneeling after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the Priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), it is laudable for this practice to be retained.

Perhaps one of our in–house Latin gurus can give us a slavishly literal translation of the Latin GIRM 43, à la Father Z.

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by JGMendes4049

This discussion only concerns the provision for the diocesan bishops in the diocese of the United States of America to determine that the faithful should not kneel after the Agnus Dei. There is no such provision in Canada, so there's no need to discuss that. I have quoted the Latin (universal) GIRM and the English GIRMs with adaptations for Canada and the United States for your perusal:

Latin GIRM:

[43.] Est tamen Conferentiae Episcoporum, gestus et corporis habitus in Ordine Missæ descriptos ingenio et rationabilibus populorum traditionibus ad normam iuris aptare. Attendendum tamen erit, ut sensui et indoli cuiusque partis celebrationis respondeant. Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur.

United States GIRM:

[43.] In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

Canadian GIRM:

[43.] In the dioceses of Canada, the faithful should kneel at the Consecration, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain kneeling after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the Priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), it is laudable for this practice to be retained.

Perhaps one of our in–house Latin gurus can give us a slavishly literal translation of the Latin GIRM 43, à la Father Z.

The GIRM for England and Wales doesn't imbed the adaptations into the text of the article itself.

"[43] (...) But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and postures described in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained."

[JGMendes4049]

Originally Posted by Phemie

The GIRM for England and Wales doesn't imbed the adaptations into the text of the article itself.

[43.] […] But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and postures described in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained.

Thank you Phemie. May I ask where you would get the GIRM for England and Wales online, and has it been revised, like the U.S. one has?

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by JGMendes4049

Thank you Phemie. May I ask where you would get the GIRM for England and Wales online, and has it been revised, like the U.S. one has?

http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Reso...ments/GIRM.pdf

It was published in 2005 and as far as I can tell, it's not been revised since -- but that may be because their adaptations are not in the body of the GIRM itself.

It's disappointing that when you access the GIRM on the Vatican website you are given the one with the USCCB's adaptations rather than the universal one.

[Evan]

Originally Posted by lynnareyno

The Diocese of Gaylord, Michigan has had everyone stand after the Agnus Dei and keep standing until after everyone has received communion.

I am from the Seattle diocese and I think there has been some misunderstanding concerning this directive. We are asked to stand (as stated above) until everyone has received communion. Then we are free to sit or kneel for private prayer after communion. This usually lasts for 2-3 minutes.

Thus, the uniformity in posture is maintained. As is the desire for private prayer after communion.

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by Evan

I am from the Seattle diocese and I think there has been some misunderstanding concerning this directive. We are asked to stand (as stated above) until everyone has received communion. Then we are free to sit or kneel for private prayer after communion. This usually lasts for 2-3 minutes.

Thus, the uniformity in posture is maintained. As is the desire for private prayer after communion.

The dubium in post #6 shows that, while the default posture when returning to the pew after receiving Communion is standing, it is not to be interpreted so rigidly as to prevent someone from kneeling or sitting if they want to. What Rome was saying is that standing couldn't be imposed.

[Evan]

Originally Posted by Phemie

The dubium in post #6 shows that, while the default posture when returning to the pew after receiving Communion is standing, it is not to be interpreted so rigidly as to prevent someone from kneeling or sitting if they want to. What Rome was saying is that standing couldn't be imposed.

Correct. But I think the local bishop could ask that we remain standing for some time and then kneel when all have returned. It did not specify when we were free to begin kneeling only that there must be time to kneel (if desired) after communion. So there is still some confusion as to what the bishop can legitimately request of the congregation.

I know our bishop asked for us to remain standing till all have received, our priest has gone beyond this and asked us to stand until he has purified the vessels (6-8 chalises and 4 cibarium. Then he clears the altar and sits. We then kneel or sit for 2-3 minutes 'til he rises with "Let us pray".

If that final time of silence is not observed, one would need to be permitted to kneel immediately following communion as per the dubium.

My preference would be to kneel through the purification process and the clearing of the altar, then sit with the priest. But out of respect for him, I stand then kneel. In this way I find a great separation between the liturgy of the word (standing and sitting) and the liturgy of the Eucharist (standing and kneeling... no sitting from the Sanctus to the end of Mass). I'm coming to like it.

[roadsend]

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

The BCL Newsletter continues: "In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion" (p. 26. Emphasis added.)

Earlier, the CDW had reaffirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the GIRM for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained. [See AB March 2003, p. 4 sidebar.]








(my bolds)

[Evan]

Originally Posted by roadsend

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

The BCL Newsletter continues: "In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion" (p. 26. Emphasis added.)

Earlier, the CDW had reaffirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the GIRM for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained. [See AB March 2003, p. 4 sidebar.]

(my bolds)

I guess I should clarify: Our priest has said: "He would prefer we stand 'til he sits, then all would change to another posture." Generally, the pianist stops the music at that same time. So there is no compulsion one way or another, simply an expressed preference.

[zab]

Originally Posted by Evan

Correct. But I think the local bishop could ask that we remain standing for some time and then kneel when all have returned. It did not specify when we were free to begin kneeling only that there must be time to kneel (if desired) after communion. So there is still some confusion as to what the bishop can legitimately request of the congregation.

I know our bishop asked for us to remain standing till all have received, our priest has gone beyond this and asked us to stand until he has purified the vessels (6-8 chalises and 4 cibarium. Then he clears the altar and sits. We then kneel or sit for 2-3 minutes 'til he rises with "Let us pray".

If that final time of silence is not observed, one would need to be permitted to kneel immediately following communion as per the dubium.

My preference would be to kneel through the purification process and the clearing of the altar, then sit with the priest. But out of respect for him, I stand then kneel. In this way I find a great separation between the liturgy of the word (standing and sitting) and the liturgy of the Eucharist (standing and kneeling... no sitting from the Sanctus to the end of Mass). I'm coming to like it.

It is true that orginally he did ask that we all remain standing until after everyone received. But that changed and we were given the option to remain standing or to kneel or sit when coming back from Communion. Everyone in our parish continued to kneel. At least we got the message in our parish. I don't know if other parishes did or if the pastors did not make that clear to their parishioners that they did have an option when coming back from Communion.

[djd83]

MissRose73:

Which parishes do you usually attend?

I am in this diocese and go to the St. Mary's University Parish (because I'm a college student and it's close-by). It has kneelers!

I went to the Alma parish a couple times and I'm disappointed that they don't

[Catholic37]

@ zab....help, please...

I am a long-time lurker, and just registered here (finally).

I recently moved to the Seattle Archdiocese, and read the post where you shared that our new Archbishop [Sartain] did indeed make the clarification that when coming back from Communion we may choose whatever posture we want.

I would be HUGELY grateful if you help me could point me in the direction of where I can get my hands upon the documentation of that clarification (it would be of help in charitably addressing this through proper channels in my parish). I have combed the Archdiocesan website, but to no avail (so far)...

Any help at all you can provide in tracking down this statement/clarification will be appreciated!

- Catholic37

[JGMendes4049]

Originally Posted by Catholic37

I am a long–time lurker, and just registered here (finally).

Welcome!

I was a lurker for a long time, too.

[zab]

Originally Posted by Catholic37

@ zab....help, please...

I am a long-time lurker, and just registered here (finally).

I recently moved to the Seattle Archdiocese, and read the post where you shared that our new Archbishop [Sartain] did indeed make the clarification that when coming back from Communion we may choose whatever posture we want.

I would be HUGELY grateful if you help me could point me in the direction of where I can get my hands upon the documentation of that clarification (it would be of help in charitably addressing this through proper channels in my parish). I have combed the Archdiocesan website, but to no avail (so far)...

Any help at all you can provide in tracking down this statement/clarification will be appreciated!

- Catholic37

Actually, it is my understanding that it was Archbishop Brunette who made the correction and acknowledged the clarification that was issued by the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Cardinal Arinze. Our pastor at that time had previously told us of a change that was being made- that we were to remain standing after the Agnus Dei and remain standing until we all came back from Communion. However, when it came time to make the change, we were told that we may continue to kneel or sit if we prefered when Coming back from Communion and that is what everyone at our parish has chosen to do.

Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
5 June 2003
Prot. n. 855/03/L
Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?
Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
Francis Cardinal Arinze
Prefect

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWCLAR.HTM