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View Poll Results: Is a Drum Kit a Suitable Instrument for Mass?
YES 18 22.78%
NO 61 77.22%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

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  #91  
Old Nov 1, '11, 9:08 am
PatriceA PatriceA is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Te Deum View Post
Even if the man was in a three-piece suit made of the finest Indian silk and his kit was of the finest gold with crystal drum-sticks, it would not be appropriate for the setting. No instrument except the human voice would be.

Which is why Gregorian Chant alone suffices. I can at best suffer a pipe organ simply for the fact that they have been ingrained in Catholic culture for centuries. But even at that it's a stretch and I prefer the liturgy without them.
You forgot to add "in your opinion."
  #92  
Old Nov 1, '11, 9:09 am
TheMc TheMc is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post
We can certainly raise ourselves to God through various types of music, doesn't have to be just one genre or avenue.
Go ahead. Just do it outside of Mass!!
  #93  
Old Nov 1, '11, 9:09 am
TheMc TheMc is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post
You forgot to add "in your opinion."
TeDeum didn't forget anything. That's why the church in the past has specifically banned percussion.
  #94  
Old Nov 1, '11, 9:11 am
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centurionguard centurionguard is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post
I think this is where you and I disagree, because I think ALL those types of masses can be reverent and sacred.
I would have to respectfully disagree. Seeing so many types of musical Masses to fit the desired taste of a vast multiple rainbow spectrum group of Catholics lacks Uniformity and misses the real point and meaning of the entire Mass..

The Meaning of the Mass (Part 1) - Archbishop Fulton Sheen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UabMF-8uXxg

The Meaning of the Mass (Part 2) - Archbishop Fulton Sheen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_-4Pj5LsOA

The Meaning of the Mass (Part 3) - Archbishop Fulton Sheen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZx6_pXbC6U
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  #95  
Old Nov 1, '11, 9:17 am
Te Deum Te Deum is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post
You forgot to add "in your opinion."
An opinion backed by two millennia of Church history. Chant is our music, it was developed by Catholics for Catholics.

Why on earth would someone take Bob the music minister's half-baked scribbles from the night before over Ambrosian hymn?
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  #96  
Old Nov 1, '11, 9:19 am
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by Te Deum View Post
Even if the man was in a three-piece suit made of the finest Indian silk and his kit was of the finest gold with crystal drum-sticks, it would not be appropriate for the setting. No instrument except the human voice would be.

Which is why Gregorian Chant alone suffices. I can at best suffer a pipe organ simply for the fact that they have been ingrained in Catholic culture for centuries. But even at that it's a stretch and I prefer the liturgy without them.
Again, where are you getting your information?

It's not sola scripture to quote the Bible. Doctrine never contradicts the Bible. And the fact that popes have said thigns that seem to go against the Bible...forbidding insturments at Mass that God HIMSELF permitted at the Arc and permits in HEAVEN to me seems as if the Popes were in error. Becuase God cannot be in error.
  #97  
Old Nov 1, '11, 9:22 am
Te Deum Te Deum is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by purplesunshine View Post
Again, where are you getting your information?

It's not sola scripture to quote the Bible. Doctrine never contradicts the Bible. And the fact that popes have said thigns that seem to go against the Bible...forbidding insturments at Mass that God HIMSELF permitted at the Arc and permits in HEAVEN to me seems as if the Popes were in error. Becuase God cannot be in error.
I think you've quoted me by mistake, I have mentioned "Scripture Alone" in this thread. Or any thread now that I think about it.. I don't give much time to heretics any more.

However I do take issue with your post. There is a very big different between the worship of the Old Testament and the worship we have today.
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  #98  
Old Nov 1, '11, 9:41 am
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Sarabande Sarabande is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by purplesunshine View Post
And a big bellowing organ is somehow more appropriate? Or even pholophony....which sounds an awful lot like aboriginal chant? What can get more secular than a sound that godless natives make?
My views on drum kits at mass have been expressed enough on other threads. I don't know what kind of polyphony you were listening to, but I don't think it (meaning sacred polyphony) sounds anything like that below. Not putting it down as I think it is very interesting to listen to, especially with western ears and only training in Western Art Music and having to make myself understand it from the perspective and whatever rules they have for their form of music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTU8m...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Z44...eature=related

That said, original polyphony, (and I know I've said this many times on other threads, but I think it is always important to point out to ensure that people just don't believe that polyphony was always sacred music) before it was refined enough for the Church to recognize it as appropriate for liturgy, was considered to completely secular in sound and totally inappropriate for mass. It was often referred to as "lascivious", "inciting lust", etc. by contemporaries of the time when polyphony was creeping into the liturgy. It was, by all regards, popular secular music for the time and was banned for use in liturgy three popes at various periods. It wasn't until Guillame de Machaut actually refined the composition of polyphony as well as the execution of it by the voices that it was deemed appropriate for mass. There is a difference from the sound of polyphony secular music to sacred polyphonic music and when we had to perform it in college, we had to learn not to sing it as smoothly and "solemnly" as we did with sacred polyphony. It's a bit more "upbeat" and with a little more staccatto-like singing. Some of the vocal secular polyphonic music we sang was very similar in style as this and that was what the Church was against and banned for liturgy at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxfiC...eature=related

The sacred refinement of polyphony continued on and Palestrina was considered one who really perfected it by those in the Church at the time and today.

Sacred polyphonic motet by Palestrina:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mdmco61Htk

Missa Benedicta Es
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lneIW...eature=related

Now, throughout the centuries different kinds of instruments and popular styles of music has crept into the liturgy and the Church has had to reign it in. Operatic singing, for instance, was very popular for a while at mass (it was one of different kinds of popular vocal music at the time.. literally considered music for the common people and not for the intellectual), until the Pope had to put the stops on it and singers had to reign their voices in... they had to refine it for liturgy.

Now, the "problem" is with the popular music of today, which usually consists of rock-like bands, folk groups and such. Perhaps some of these instruments and styles of singing can also be refined like so many other "popular" styles of singing and music was refined throughout the centuries. Only time will tell. But we are currently in a transitional time where I haven't seen yet, this kind of refinement, yet have been seeing more Church authorities in different dioceses or at least in individual parishes begin to request that the music and "performance" of the music be more refined or request that the instruments used not sound completely like a secular rock concert. For instance, I've heard an acoustic guitar played absolutely reverently and beautiful for mass and actually cantored a very traditional wedding mass (chanted Latin mass parts, etc) with with a classical guitar and violinist since the organ was out of commission. It was extremely reverent and spiritual. So, although I do believe that the organ does have pride of place and should be used (although I prefer it to be played well because when it is not, I'd rather not hear it at all - classical organ played well can be beautiful) whenever possible, I do believe other instruments could possibly be used if they can be refined.

I just don't abide by the idea that just because other instruments can be used, that you can just play the instrument any way you like. And I only believe in this due to how the Church has handled it in the past and today. As much as I would love to sing some religious pieces that require an operatic voice at mass because there are some really gorgeous religious vocal music, I still don't believe it is appropriate, even though when I've had to sing that kind of music at mass by various music directors, people have told me afterward how spiritual, beautiful and moving it was.

Anyway, just my thoughts.
  #99  
Old Nov 1, '11, 10:35 am
fall fox fall fox is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

fall fox

I have always thought of myself as being a rather Conservative Catholic, there's a lot about the Church of the 1950's that I loved. However, in retrospect, I feel more involved in the mass of Vll and hopefully the revised translation we are about to start using. I don't particularly like a guitar being played mainly because it is usually more about the guitarist performance than about the mass being said. I know it doesn't need to be that way, but that is my experience.
At my daughters Parish they have a drum set and they also have a guitar, organ, piano, flute, and I can't remember what else. My point is, I like it. The music is played like an orchestra, they also have a large choir that is miked and the whole thing is beautifully done. It adds to not takes away from the mass being said. It is amazing that they have so many talented people involved with making a joyous noise for the Lord
  #100  
Old Nov 1, '11, 10:40 am
FAH FAH is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post
Nope, not going away anytime soon. The new music minister at our church is forming a folk group as we discuss this issue. This thread and its debate has only made me want to check it out even more than I did two days ago.
Please please do not 'check out' the Folk Group.
'If I were a butterfly', 'Give me joy in my heart' and 'Shine Jesus Shine' are not reconcilable with the most sacred thing this side of Heaven: THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

By the way what will the little child sitting in the pew think in a few years time when the bright IMMORAL attractions of this world come into view. He'll se them and then think back to his days in Church when the Folk Group rattled off 'Sometimes I'm naughty' in place of the Confiteor or sang 'Sing it in the valleys' while Fr. McLiberal encouraged everyone to clap hands and favor women "Priests". He'll see that and think "How lame, what a joke" "Why should I go to church" And choose the immoral path or at best be a luke warm Catholic who thinks the Popes wrong and Islam is just fine.

PLEASE DON'T PLAY A PART IN THIS
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  #101  
Old Nov 1, '11, 11:45 am
TheMc TheMc is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by FAH View Post
Please please do not 'check out' the Folk Group.
'If I were a butterfly', 'Give me joy in my heart' and 'Shine Jesus Shine' are not reconcilable with the most sacred thing this side of Heaven: THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

By the way what will the little child sitting in the pew think in a few years time when the bright IMMORAL attractions of this world come into view. He'll se them and then think back to his days in Church when the Folk Group rattled off 'Sometimes I'm naughty' in place of the Confiteor or sang 'Sing it in the valleys' while Fr. McLiberal encouraged everyone to clap hands and favor women "Priests". He'll see that and think "How lame, what a joke" "Why should I go to church" And choose the immoral path or at best be a luke warm Catholic who thinks the Popes wrong and Islam is just fine.

PLEASE DON'T PLAY A PART IN THIS
  #102  
Old Nov 1, '11, 12:03 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by PatriceA View Post
How so? I don't understand how its a mockery, but is just a different interpretation than the one you might come to understand.
Maybe I did misinterpret it. How would you interpret it?

Quote:
120. Organum tubulatum in Ecclesia latina magno in honore habeatur, tamquam instrumentum musicum traditionale, cuius sonus Ecclesiae caeremoniis mirum addere valet splendorem, atque mentes ad Deum ac superna vehementer extollere.
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM

That said, the only drums I heard were during the reading of the Passion on Palm Sunday. I'm not going to say it was inappropriate. It was just basically pointless. If it were supposed to create more drama, I certainly didn't feel it.
  #103  
Old Nov 1, '11, 12:04 pm
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

Never in my life would I have thought that drums in mass would cause such drama.

Is it the moral equivalent to committing a homicide? Wait...don't answer that question...
  #104  
Old Nov 1, '11, 12:09 pm
PatriceA PatriceA is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAH View Post
Please please do not 'check out' the Folk Group.
'If I were a butterfly', 'Give me joy in my heart' and 'Shine Jesus Shine' are not reconcilable with the most sacred thing this side of Heaven: THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

By the way what will the little child sitting in the pew think in a few years time when the bright IMMORAL attractions of this world come into view. He'll se them and then think back to his days in Church when the Folk Group rattled off 'Sometimes I'm naughty' in place of the Confiteor or sang 'Sing it in the valleys' while Fr. McLiberal encouraged everyone to clap hands and favor women "Priests". He'll see that and think "How lame, what a joke" "Why should I go to church" And choose the immoral path or at best be a luke warm Catholic who thinks the Popes wrong and Islam is just fine.

PLEASE DON'T PLAY A PART IN THIS
Again, its your opinion and your personal taste. There is nothing in the Church teachings that prohibit a folk group being used for the music ministry at Mass. Plus, the folk group that was the music ministry at mass last weekend, sang the very same hymns that the other cantors and organist played at the other masses. All traditional Catholic hymns, nothing like the songs you mentioned. Folk groups in the music ministry DO NOT automatically mean the music selected will be different than the other hymns played at the other masses on the same weekend.
  #105  
Old Nov 1, '11, 12:39 pm
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Sarabande Sarabande is offline
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Default Re: Is a drum kit a Suitable instrument for Mass?

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Originally Posted by Rascalking View Post
Never in my life would I have thought that drums in mass would cause such drama.
You would be amazed how new music brought into the mass for centuries caused so much drama... even more so than what you see here on CAF. It's part of the reason why the Church, so many times, had to come in and reign it in, to the point where they did place bans on certain music, required a refinement of the music that was currently being used in liturgy (even when there was a ban - the churches in the court of Elinor of Aquitaine, for instance, basically ignored the Church's stance on polyphonic music used for liturgy and so her court was notorious for having that music in both secular and sacred situations and contemporaries of the time who would visit the court would write about the scandal her court produced by doing that), including banning certain modes, chords... most notoriously the tri-tone (also called the "diabolus in musica" and banned for liturgical music because of it's dissonance in sound.)

In more recent history, the Church has not outright placed bans on music, but still does the "reigning-in" part. Humans are the same no matter what century you are in and we all reach for something that will "speak" to us the most spiritually, aesthetically, etc., which I think is why people are so passionate about sacred and religious music.

Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), the Church has always had rules about liturgical music. In my opinion, it's a little harder in this day and age to reign-in and request people to "refine" their music like they did up until the early 20th century, mainly because of the kind of world we live in today. I mean it's hard enough trying to reign in Catholics on issues like birth control and even on transubstantiation. (It's actually a bit frightening how many Catholics.... even ones I thought were very devout.... question transubstantiation and are verging on not believing that it is truly Jesus' body and blood.) It's really no different on less important issues like liturgical music. The Church is trying to do it now, but it is a uphill battle especially after so many years of just allowing anything.


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Is it the moral equivalent to committing a homicide? Wait...don't answer that question...
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