I heard that Catholics...

[Shibboleth]

Originally Posted by beng

In union about what?


There are group of Lutheran who denounce women pastors. And why the LCMS? Should it be wine or grape juice?


Your synod doesn't have any authoritative power.


If one stubborn member wants to ordain a lesbian, even if all opppose to it, she could still go on with her plan and there's not much that other could do inside her diocese (which is her jurisdiction).

Bing that wasn't my question. If you want to bring your polemics up in a different thread please start one, I am here to learn about Catholicism not your angst towards Lutheranism.

I do not know how the Catholic Church defines their sects. What are they, and who are they. Do they all consider the Pope the fearless leader above all others?

[Shibboleth]

Originally Posted by beng

In union about what?

Doctrinal issues, the book of Concord, etc…

There are group of Lutheran who denounce women pastors. And why the LCMS? Should it be wine or grape juice?

Krol, President of the Conference of Bishops of the United States: For some time different Ordinaries have asked this Sacred Congregation for the permission to allow priests who are undergoing a treatment for alcoholism or who have undergone this treatment, to celebrate Mass with unfermented grape juice. With this situation in mind, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith authorizes the Ordinaries of the United States of America to grant to those priests who have made this request the permission either to concelebrate with one or more priests a normal Mass but without receiving communion under the species of wine or, when this is not possible, to celebrate Mass using unfermented grape juice and to use water alone for the ritual ablutions after Communion.

Your synod doesn't have any authoritative power.

Who said I have a synod?

[Theodora]

Originally Posted by bengal_fan

i
my other qualm is with something that was said earlier. "the priests are too busy". i just don't understand how a man without a family or wife can be too busy. most protestant ministers i know (including myself) are married and still have time when their congregants need them. i have gotten calls at 3 in the morning and am never bitter about it. i am not trying to criticize the priests just that they could learn something from some (i say some because there are plenty of protestant ministers who are not good examples) of their protestant counterparts in how to minister to the individual and not just a parish.

Yes priests can get too busy. Many parishes in larger cities easily have 5000 - 8000 families (not members). I know of a priest who was so stressed out that he could not continue with a baptismal ceremony. Have you considered that Confession alone, even if it's only done on Saturday, can take a lot of a priest's time energy. Sitting for hours in a small, sometimes in a not too well-ventilated cubicle, can add to the stress. I have been to a baptism ceremony where 1/2 of the church was filled with familes with babies to be baptized. This ceremony took so long, that young children became restless and started to play games in the pews.

A priest is (of course) a human being and not a machine. I am pretty sure that there are occasions that he could feel under the weather, but forces himself to his call of duties.

We should pray for priests often that they become holy. In turn a holy priest in a parish will create holy laity. And isn't that what's all about: to "become holy like our heaveny Father is holy."

[Becky]

Originally Posted by kparlet

For all the non-Catholics on the board, please enlighten me on some of the things that we Catholics do/believe that seem extremely odd/strange to you. Perhaps we can help clear up some of the misconceptions.

Well since you invited me to do so, Bob and Penny Lord had a program on Mary that aired on EWTN a few weeks back that shocked and saddened me. It was on La Conquistadora-if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don't know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

[Dr. Colossus]

Originally Posted by Becky

if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don't know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

If this scene had occured in, say, a monarchy in Europe, and instead of a statue sat a king, would you believe that the king were being worshipped? Honored, respected, even adored? Yes, but not worshipped. So it is not fair to assume that these people were worshipping Mary either. Also, I promise you that not a single person in attendance believed that the statue was Mary, or contained Mary, or had any power whatsoever. The statue was a representation, and those bowing before it recognized that fact.

[AngelicDoctor]

Regarding busy priests:

For one thing, the Catholic faith has far greater sacrametnal activity--and this makes quite a difference for the Catholic priest vs. the Protestant minister: baptisms, confessions (often in conjunction with preached retreats; and think of these during penitential seasons in Lent and Advent), daily Mass, perhaps 2-8 Masses on the weekend, weddings and marriage preparations, visiting/annointing the sick and dying, alongside possible teaching duties in the schools or catechetical instruction, administrative work, etc.
Factor all of this in with the fact that some priests are in charge of multiple parishes--some quite a distance apart.
I guess that my main point would be that you should not judge the busyness of the life of a Catholic priest without having walked in their shoes first. My impression (and I live in a rectory with 3 priests as a seminarian on pastoral internship) is that the summer months during Ordinary time are more laid back but once the school year kicks in and Advent/Christmas, and Lent/Easter come around, things get tight.

[Shibboleth]

Originally Posted by Dr. Colossus

If this scene had occured in, say, a monarchy in Europe, and instead of a statue sat a king, would you believe that the king were being worshipped? Honored, respected, even adored? Yes, but not worshipped. So it is not fair to assume that these people were worshipping Mary either. Also, I promise you that not a single person in attendance believed that the statue was Mary, or contained Mary, or had any power whatsoever. The statue was a representation, and those bowing before it recognized that fact.

What is the difference if I might ask. Seems to me it is close to the same as a golden calf. And yes if people did the same with a statue of a King I would consider it worship. Idol worship anyways.

[Becky]

Originally Posted by Dr. Colossus

If this scene had occured in, say, a monarchy in Europe, and instead of a statue sat a king, would you believe that the king were being worshipped? Honored, respected, even adored? Yes, but not worshipped. So it is not fair to assume that these people were worshipping Mary either. Also, I promise you that not a single person in attendance believed that the statue was Mary, or contained Mary, or had any power whatsoever. The statue was a representation, and those bowing before it recognized that fact.

Hi Colossus,

Thanks for the quick response. In my eyes there is a big difference between a living, breathing monarch such as QEII, and someone kneeling before her as a sign of respect towards her sovereignty, and someone kneeling before an inatimate object and dressing it up in expesive jewels and clothing. BTW, how do you know what people in attendance were thinking about that statue?

Good post Shibboleth

[1962Missal]

Originally Posted by Becky

Well since you invited me to do so, Bob and Penny Lord had a program on Mary that aired on EWTN a few weeks back that shocked and saddened me. It was on La Conquistadora-if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don't know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

Hiya, Winnie, still beating a dead horse?

http://fresh-hope.com/forums/viewtop...2ed6c94114e9b1

[Little Mary]

Originally Posted by Becky

Well since you invited me to do so, Bob and Penny Lord had a program on Mary that aired on EWTN a few weeks back that shocked and saddened me. It was on La Conquistadora-if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don't know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

I sense a bit of arrogance in this post.

I might patiently point out that different cultures show love and respect for Mary in different ways. What you saw and what you understand are very clearly two different things here.

Please take the time to find out how Catholics regard Mary before you criticize anymore. If you have already looked into it, then you have discovered that Catholics do not worship Mary, and that we do not think of her as God, and you have chosen to ignore it.

[Emma412]

Originally Posted by Shibboleth

Do they all consider the Pope the fearless leader above all others?

well, well. I would have to say for accusing Bing of having angst against the Lutheran church, you sure were ready to jump on the train full of people that have a problem with the papacy.

Yes, John Paul II does proclaim rather loudly "Be Not Afraid", but his job is like Peter's. His voice is to be heard above all others (when I say others I am by no means inferring that anything the Pope said would be higher than God's truth). He is to proclaim God's word. God is using him to guide His (referring to God's) Church. It is not that Catholics think the Pope is perfect (he does go to confession after all), but we trust that God (as he promised) will guide His Church into all truth. Apostolic succession demands that this pope's position in relationship to God be recognized. He is "the vicar of Christ" on earth. Almost like an embassador. He is entrusted with God's truth so that he might proclaim the teachings and doctrines of the Church as they were meant to be proclaimed.

(I know you personally may understand this but once I started I thought it wise to try and answer any questions that might arise later from other readers.)

I'm not sure what you mean by Catholic sects. But I think I know where some confusion might arise. Considering people around the world (since catholic does mean universal and the church is present all around the world in every country) may not be perfect examples or perhaps just ignorant of their religion, it is obvious that not everyone will practice exactly the same. However, it is the same Mass and the beliefs (however scattered they may be for an individual) did come from the same truth proclaimed by the Pope (and I hope but cannot state for sure) the Bishops and Priests around the world. Naturally, every slice of cake may not have the exact amount of ingredients as the one next to it but they are from the same mixture. I think you can agree that Protestant denominations and such tend to substitute ingredients or leave them out all together.

[Theodora]

Originally Posted by Becky
Well since you invited me to do so, Bob and Penny Lord had a program on Mary that aired on EWTN a few weeks back that shocked and saddened me. It was on La Conquistadora-if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don't know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

Originally Posted by Little Mary

I sense a bit of arrogance in this post.

I might patiently point out that different cultures show love and respect for Mary in different ways. What you saw and what you understand are very clearly two different things here.

Please take the time to find out how Catholics regard Mary before you criticize anymore. If you have already looked into it, then you have discovered that Catholics do not worship Mary, and that we do not think of her as God, and you have chosen to ignore it.

Little Mary I can understand why you felt you had to defend what Becky wrote. But on the other hand, I think you were a little too harsch with Becky. To any nominal Catholic or non-Catholic, the display of devotion to Mary by Catholics can give the impression that we worship her, especially the part about the kneeling. Yes, Becky could have inquired why Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary. She was indignant because she probably feels that we only should bow down or kneel for God alone. It probably did not occur to Becky that when people meet the queen of England, for example, they will bow down before her and kiss her hand. Catholics do the same when they have an audience with the Pope. Bow down and kiss the Papal ring on his finger. When Becky sees this, she knows that the queen of England or the Pope is not being worshipped. She just did not make the connection of these instances, which I used as an example, with the display she saw of catholics who chooe to show their deep love for Mary in the same manner.

Now, Mary, my apologies if I seem to be to harsh with you.

[Becky]

Originally Posted by Little Mary

I might patiently point out that different cultures show love and respect for Mary in different ways. What you saw and what you understand are very clearly two different things here.

I agree, however; noone from that culture has explained this to me.

Please take the time to find out how Catholics regard Mary before you criticize anymore. If you have already looked into it, then you have discovered that Catholics do not worship Mary, and that we do not think of her as God, and you have chosen to ignore it.

I know that the RCC teaches that RCs are not to worship Mary, however; that teaching seems lost on some RCs around the world. You cannot tell me that you know the hearts of RCs all across the world, and that no RC worships Mary. The OP invited me to post what I felt was strange that RCs do. Well, I find this practice very strange and saddening, and I have still yet to get a satisfactory answer.

Becky

[Becky]

Originally Posted by Theodora

Little Mary I can understand why you felt you had to defend what Becky wrote. But on the other hand, I think you were a little too harsch with Becky. To any nominal Catholic or non-Catholic, the display of devotion to Mary by Catholics can give the impression that we worship her, especially the part about the kneeling.

Thank you I was simply answering the OP: For all the non-Catholics on the board, please enlighten me on some of the things that we Catholics do/believe that seem extremely odd/strange to you. Perhaps we can help clear up some of the misconceptions.

I'm not an RC, and I see this as an "extreme odd/strange" practice. I said nothing about what the RCC teaches concerning Mary and worship, I only said that I felt very confused about this display. If you don't get a satisfactory answer in one place well then you ask RCs in another Would you rather have me ask my questions at the Former Catholics for Christ MB? I'm sure that I can get several opinions there. Gosh, apparantly, even if I am invited to give my opinion I'm attacked

Yes, Becky could have inquired why Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary. She was indignant because she probably feels that we only should bow down or kneel for God alone. It probably did not occur to Becky that when people meet the queen of England, for example, they will bow down before her and kiss her hand.

I know full well what the practice of bowing before royalty. For instance, Prince Charles knelt before his mother (and sovereign) and professed his loyalty to her at his Prince of Wales investiture ceremony. However, QEII is a living breathing monarch, and I don't feel that one can compare showing respect for QEII's sovereignty and a man-made statue.

Catholics do the same when they have an audience with the Pope. Bow down and kiss the Papal ring on his finger. When Becky sees this, she knows that the queen of England or the Pope is not being worshipped. She just did not make the connection of these instances, which I used as an example, with the display she saw of catholics who chooe to show their deep love for Mary in the same manner.

If these RCs are not worshipping Mary then why are they treating a mere statue like this?

Thank you for your respectful post Thoedora

Becky

[jc_escobar]

Hi Becky,

The truth of the matter is that neither you nor anyone else will be able to know what is in the heart of those people kneeling down to the staue of the virgin Mary.
However that doesn't mean that they were for sure wirshiping it as an idol. There might have been some who did and some who didn't, but that is not really what is important. I've seen many Protestant ministers who seem to be worshiping money and it seems all the purpose of their homily (or whatever they call it) is to get the money out of the faithful. However I don't know their heart and that is something that should be left to God to Judge since He is the one who knows everybodys heart. What is important is for it to be very clear that the Catholic Curch doesn't approve worship to neither Mary or the Saints. Nor does she give them any status equal nor above God.