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  #1  
Old Nov 7, '11, 8:59 pm
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Satan and 1/3 of the angels

We are taught that Lucifer fell and became Satan when he chose to have pride. He wanted to be God. But, also he took 1/3 of the angels with him. The question I have is if Satan chose to rebel against God as an angel because he had pride and wanted to be God, then what prompted 1/3 of the angels to join him?

Obviously, the angels couldn't be forced to join Satan. So, did they fall to the sin of pride also? If so, then why would 1/3 of the angels all of sudden fall to the sin of pride?

Keep in mind that according to reliable sources (Fr. Mitch Pacwa), an angel has complete knowledge of his choice including its consequences before it makes the choice. And once made it is final.
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  #2  
Old Nov 7, '11, 10:34 pm
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CatholicTrekkie CatholicTrekkie is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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Originally Posted by fisherman carl View Post
We are taught that Lucifer fell and became Satan when he chose to have pride. He wanted to be God. But, also he took 1/3 of the angels with him. The question I have is if Satan chose to rebel against God as an angel because he had pride and wanted to be God, then what prompted 1/3 of the angels to join him?

Obviously, the angels couldn't be forced to join Satan. So, did they fall to the sin of pride also? If so, then why would 1/3 of the angels all of sudden fall to the sin of pride?

Keep in mind that according to reliable sources (Fr. Mitch Pacwa), an angel has complete knowledge of his choice including its consequences before it makes the choice. And once made it is final.
To answer your question, yes, there were other angels who wanted to be God. Our understanding of angels is that they make an immediate choice for God or against Him when He makes them. Yes, they know the consequences of their choices, yet they still choose against Him (even knowing that they would be damned for it).

Perhaps what could have happened was that Lucifer in his great cunning and evilness, tempted and seduced the angels to his side. If we as people are prone to his influence, why not the angels? Logically speaking, he could have such power over other angels because they are lesser than him, or "at his level". If we take the "Heirarchy of Angels" into account, then he could affect angels lesser than him, but not greater than him, hence why he can influence us. So it seems to make sense that he could tempt other angels to his side (he is the Tempter, after all).
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  #3  
Old Nov 8, '11, 1:40 am
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Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

They chose to follow Satan in his rebellion

Him being the first and leader of this rebellion probably makes him the Father of lies as Jesus calls him and why he is called the Devil and the other angels demons

Satan is the chief demon

He rebelled with his cause against God and the others chose to follow him in this rebellion

If you ask why they rebelled,we also sin against God all our life
Why do you sin against God?

we cant blame the Devil for our sin ,we all have free will like those angels had and we choose to sin ourselves like they did
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  #4  
Old Nov 8, '11, 8:10 am
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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Originally Posted by CatholicTrekkie View Post
To answer your question, yes, there were other angels who wanted to be God. Our understanding of angels is that they make an immediate choice for God or against Him when He makes them. Yes, they know the consequences of their choices, yet they still choose against Him (even knowing that they would be damned for it).
So, if the angels have a higher intellect then humans and they know the consequence of their choice is eternal damnation, then why would they ever choose eternal damnation?

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Originally Posted by CatholicTrekkie View Post
Perhaps what could have happened was that Lucifer in his great cunning and evilness, tempted and seduced the angels to his side. If we as people are prone to his influence, why not the angels? Logically speaking, he could have such power over other angels because they are lesser than him, or "at his level". If we take the "Heirarchy of Angels" into account, then he could affect angels lesser than him, but not greater than him, hence why he can influence us. So it seems to make sense that he could tempt other angels to his side (he is the Tempter, after all).
It really makes you think of the nature of angels versus the nature of men. If angels have a higher intellect and are in the presence of God then how could they be tempted to disobey God? Man is born into sin and lives in a fallen world. So, it's easier to see why man sins. However, the angels lived in the presence of God. What could possibly motivate an angel to give all that up?
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  #5  
Old Nov 8, '11, 8:20 am
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
They chose to follow Satan in his rebellion

Him being the first and leader of this rebellion probably makes him the Father of lies as Jesus calls him and why he is called the Devil and the other angels demons

Satan is the chief demon

He rebelled with his cause against God and the others chose to follow him in this rebellion

If you ask why they rebelled,we also sin against God all our life
Why do you sin against God?
The angels had a higher intellect like Adam in the garden. Yet both were deceived by Satan. Yet, what is puzzling is that the angels were in the presence of God. How could they be deceived? Is pride really that powerful that it makes one blind to reality? How could Satan think of himself as god when God himself is standing right before him? It really makes you think about the nature of pride, doesn't it?


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Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
we cant blame the Devil for our sin ,we all have free will like those angels had and we choose to sin ourselves like they did

The devil doesn't force anyone to sin. Instead he acts to morally corrupt people by influencing them to question God's word. I was listening to Bishop Fulton Sheen talk one time about the difference between an evil person and a bad person. He says that a bad person is not the same as an evil person. A bad person does bad things. For example stealing something is a bad thing to do and therefore makes that person bad but is not necessarily an evil person.

However, an evil person is someone who deliberately corrupts others. An evil person turns people away from God. They seek the ruin of souls. The devil would classify as an evil person because he wants others to turn from God.

I guess another question is why would God permit the devil to go around tempting his angels and humans?
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  #6  
Old Nov 8, '11, 5:32 pm
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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Originally Posted by fisherman carl View Post
The angels had a higher intellect like Adam in the garden. Yet both were deceived by Satan. Yet, what is puzzling is that the angels were in the presence of God. How could they be deceived? Is pride really that powerful that it makes one blind to reality? How could Satan think of himself as god when God himself is standing right before him? It really makes you think about the nature of pride, doesn't it?


The devil doesn't force anyone to sin. Instead he acts to morally corrupt people by influencing them to question God's word. I was listening to Bishop Fulton Sheen talk one time about the difference between an evil person and a bad person. He says that a bad person is not the same as an evil person. A bad person does bad things. For example stealing something is a bad thing to do and therefore makes that person bad but is not necessarily an evil person.

However, an evil person is someone who deliberately corrupts others. An evil person turns people away from God. They seek the ruin of souls. The devil would classify as an evil person because he wants others to turn from God.

I guess another question is why would God permit the devil to go around tempting his angels and humans?
Yes!
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  #7  
Old Nov 8, '11, 8:56 pm
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

I think today's Mass readings shed some light on this issue.

In Wisdom 2:23-24 it says,

"For God formed us to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made us. But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are allied with him experience it."

The devil envied God.
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  #8  
Old Nov 8, '11, 9:06 pm
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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Originally Posted by fisherman carl View Post
I guess another question is why would God permit the devil to go around tempting his angels and humans?
I was thinking about this question today. I think the answer may be that God allows the devil to tempt us because first of all, he has given the devil free will, as well as allowing the consequences that come with his free will. And, he has given us free will and allows us to experience the consequences of our own choices.

God allows the possibility of evil so that a greater good may result. Having free will means we can choose to love or we can choose to go against God. But, if we did not have that freedom in the first place we could not choose to love. Temptation gives us the opportunity to choose to love God instead of giving into the devil.

Ultimately, it will be those who chose to love God that will come out on top in the end. And, those who chose to go along with the devil will lose out eternally.

"The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them... Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself."
Wis 3:1,5

"But the wicked shall receive a punishment to match their thoughts, since they neglected righteousness and forsook the LORD."
Wis 3:10
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  #9  
Old Nov 9, '11, 12:07 am
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Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisherman carl View Post
I think today's Mass readings shed some light on this issue.

In Wisdom 2:23-24 it says,

"For God formed us to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made us. But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are allied with him experience it."

The devil envied God.
the devil was envious of man also

from

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogsp...evil-fall.html


What could he have been envious of in man though? Man is, after all, lower in terms of natural capacity than the angels. Angels are pure spirit, they have an intellect a matter of magnitude more powerful than our own and besides all of this they were created before man, "God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1) Back to the initial question, "What was the Devil specifically envious of in man?" I believe the Devil was envious of the glory to which Jesus Christ would raise man through His passion, death, resurrection and glorious assumption. Ambroggio Catarino, a fourteenth century Dominican commentator on Saint Thomas Aquinas, taught that the Devil fell not only because of pride but also on account of envy when God revealed to him the mystery of His will (C.f. Ephesians 3:9); namely that God would become a man and not an angel and by means of this becoming man, He would raise man to glory, a glory higher than the angels. Satan, Ambroggio Catarino reports, went insanely mad upon receiving this revelation of God's plan, so much so that He rebelled and hated Jesus Christ and thus all men. "For by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man." (Gaudium et Spes, 22) The deep hatred the Evil One bears toward Jesus Christ also explains why Satan hates priests so much; the priest extends the saving mission of Jesus Christ through time and space by acting in persona Christi capitis (in the person of Christ the head) when celebrating the Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist.


Finally, I must say that Ambroggio Catarino's interpretation of the Devil's fall is by no means binding on Catholics and for that matter it should be said that there is theological debate concerning whether or not the second Person of the Blessed Trinity would have become man, had man not sinned. I hold that even if man had not sinned in the Garden of Eden, the Person of the Word would still have become man as Glorificator (Glorifyer). Obviously, because the sin of Adam actually took place in history, the Word became flesh to "save his people from their sins" (Redemptor) but, nevertheless, He still glorifies us (Glorificator) by sending the Holy Spirit into our hearts, so that we might become sharers in the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) Jesus is our redeemer and our glorifyer and for this the Devil hates Him and is envious of us with a hatred that frightens to the core.


Let us listen to the beautiful words of Pope Saint Leo the Great in response to the question, "Why did God not prevent the first man from sinning?" "Christ's inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon's envy had taken away."
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  #10  
Old Nov 9, '11, 9:43 am
Mojoala Mojoala is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

Which brings us full circle to the question that has no real answer except for the phrase " God is not the author of evil" which for Protestants have no Biblical Basis for and Catholics only has "The Church says so"

God exists simultaneous in the Past, Present, and Future.
God created Satan fully aware that Satan would become evil.
God divinely inspired someone to write in the Holy Scriptures that God made Evil.
God made all things seen and unseen.
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  #11  
Old Nov 9, '11, 11:23 pm
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
the devil was envious of man also

from

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogsp...evil-fall.html


What could he have been envious of in man ...
Thanks for that interesting read
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  #12  
Old Nov 9, '11, 11:36 pm
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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Originally Posted by Mojoala View Post
Which brings us full circle to the question that has no real answer except for the phrase " God is not the author of evil" which for Protestants have no Biblical Basis for and Catholics only has "The Church says so"

God exists simultaneous in the Past, Present, and Future.
God created Satan fully aware that Satan would become evil.
God divinely inspired someone to write in the Holy Scriptures that God made Evil.
God made all things seen and unseen.
I don't see God as the author if evil. That would be a theological impossibility. Since God is all good (see rich man and Jesus) and in him there is no evil.

Evil does not exist. It is simply the absence of good. Just like darkness does not exist. It is the absence of light. Something good becomes evil when it steps out of God's light. This happens when someone with free will chooses sin over God. God did not create them or will them to sin against him. Why would God create something with the purpose to be disobedient to him?

God gives free will so that we can choose to love him. Love that is freely given is true love. Love that is coerced is not love. Thus to allow us to freely love, God must necessarily give us free will. But with free will come the possibility of choosing evil. Thus God must allow the possibility of evil. But, he does not will it or cause it. He allows this possibility so that the greater good of love is possible.
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  #13  
Old Nov 10, '11, 8:39 am
Mojoala Mojoala is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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I don't see God as the author if evil. That would be a theological impossibility. Since God is all good (see rich man and Jesus) and in him there is no evil.
Actually you have made some erroneous assumptions. Because God is being quoted a being "good" ( btw "all good" is not in the verses ) that God can not be evil as well. That it itself contradicts the beliet that God is all things.

Furthermore it actually proves too much. Jesus actually states, that himself is not good. Jesus is God, yet he is not good. Like you pointed out Evil is the absence of Good. Therefore by your logic Jesus is Evil....

For your edification from the NAB
Mark 10:18 Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
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Old Nov 10, '11, 8:52 am
Mojoala Mojoala is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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Evil does not exist. It is simply the absence of good. Just like darkness does not exist. It is the absence of light. Something good becomes evil when it steps out of God's light. This happens when someone with free will chooses sin over God. God did not create them or will them to sin against him. Why would God create something with the purpose to be disobedient to him?
hmmmm. let me see. God created all things seen and unseen. In Genesis, Darkness, Earth, water, and wind ( all presumbly creations of God ) existed first. Then God created light and He separated the two...calling one day and one night.

Then God created the Sun and Moon to govern each respecfully. This is the redundacy problem of Genesis.

The more probably exegesis of the Darkness and Light is that they are symbolic of Evil and Good. Repeatedly thru scripture Darkness and Evil are synomous, likewise the same is true for Light and Good.

This makes more sense, because literally you can not have Light without the Sun.....
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Old Nov 10, '11, 9:01 am
Mojoala Mojoala is offline
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Default Re: Satan and 1/3 of the angels

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God gives free will so that we can choose to love him. Love that is freely given is true love. Love that is coerced is not love. Thus to allow us to freely love, God must necessarily give us free will. But with free will come the possibility of choosing evil. Thus God must allow the possibility of evil. But, he does not will it or cause it. He allows this possibility so that the greater good of love is possible.
He must? Like God has no choice?

God created all things seen and unseen. God created all possibilities....
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