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  #31  
Old Nov 12, '11, 3:56 am
sallybutler sallybutler is online now
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Originally Posted by Elijah121 View Post
There is actually another scripture reference in the Bible, look for Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when i laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?or who hath stretched the line upon it? whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
I thought the point of this chapter of Job was to point out that Job did not exist when God created the earth.
  #32  
Old Nov 12, '11, 4:13 am
GEddie GEddie is online now
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Post Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

WE are not spirits, we are human beings.

As such, we could not have existed in time before our bodies formed, as we do not have a body; we are a body.

We will go into Eternity, but we were not there before coming into time. Only God can make that transition, as our LORD did.

ICXC NIKA
  #33  
Old Nov 12, '11, 8:37 am
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Originally Posted by sallybutler View Post
I thought the point of this chapter of Job was to point out that Job did not exist when God created the earth.
I think you are right.

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  #34  
Old Nov 12, '11, 10:54 am
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Originally Posted by Elijah121 View Post
There is actually another scripture reference in the Bible, look for Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when i laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?or who hath stretched the line upon it? whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
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Originally Posted by sallybutler View Post
I thought the point of this chapter of Job was to point out that Job did not exist when God created the earth.
Exactly! See what a little twisting of Bible interpretation can do to 'prove' an unprovable point? But, that never hinders some people from pulling 'phrases' out of context to make an entire passage mean something totally different than it was intended to mean. That entire chapter from Job, was God Gibbs-smacking him. It was meant as a lesson to him that no one but God was present when He created the universe out of nothing, and only He has the power to do any of those things that were mentioned. Therefore, Job has no right whatsoever to question why God does anything, because only God knows the real purpose of anything that He does.
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  #35  
Old Nov 12, '11, 12:33 pm
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
Steve,
Historically, the idea of a pre-existent soul comes from Greek Philosophy.
Yes, I think it originated with Plato.

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Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
As you know (and much better than I), the CCC deals directly with Adam and Christ--as the first Adam and the last Adam. Christ, the last Adam is the lifegiving Spirit, who created the first Adam. There really is no room for pre-existence in the creation account.
This has always been my understanding. Not to mention the creation account in Genesis. It would seem, that if this belief was actually ever held by the Jews, that the account of the creation of man would have incorporated this point. I have also been taught that any reference or implication of preexistence in Jewish thought was actually referring to predestination or something being foreordained and not actually preexisting.


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I think one has to do a lot of finagling (as we say in Texas ) to interpret Holy Scripture in a way that supports pre-existence of the soul.
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  #36  
Old Nov 12, '11, 12:46 pm
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
Exactly! See what a little twisting of Bible interpretation can do to 'prove' an unprovable point? But, that never hinders some people from pulling 'phrases' out of context to make an entire passage mean something totally different than it was intended to mean. That entire chapter from Job, was God Gibbs-smacking him. It was meant as a lesson to him that no one but God was present when He created the universe out of nothing, and only He has the power to do any of those things that were mentioned. Therefore, Job has no right whatsoever to question why God does anything, because only God knows the real purpose of anything that He does.
I would agree completley, but what I believe the come-back will be is this: That we were not human in our preexistence, we were "intelligences" who were "organized" or "procreated" by God into "spirit children" who then chose to come to earth and become human. I would be interested in a Mormon's viewpoint here.

But you are correct. The entire point of the passage in Job is to show that God is the Creator of all things and that nothing and no one was around prior to his act of creation:

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7)

The Mormon answer to these questions would have to be "I was floating around as an "intelligence", or, "I was with you as your "spirit child", which would then contradict the very point of the passage which is that we were not there.
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  #37  
Old Nov 12, '11, 9:12 pm
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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. . . .Gibbs-smacking him. . .
NCIS fan? Me too.

Anna
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  #38  
Old Nov 12, '11, 9:42 pm
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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For a man to have been born blind.....and the FACT he was born blind was an indication that he had sinned......when did he sin? The questioners were understanding that the man born blind had sinned in some way and his blindness was punishment for that sin....unless one had the capacity ot sin in the pre-existence....what sense did the question make in the first place?
Didn't they believe one could be suffering for the sins of one's parents? What Jew believes in a pre-existence?
  #39  
Old Nov 12, '11, 10:29 pm
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Originally Posted by SteveVH View Post
I would agree completley, but what I believe the come-back will be is this: That we were not human in our preexistence, we were "intelligences" who were "organized" or "procreated" by God into "spirit children" who then chose to come to earth and become human. I would be interested in a Mormon's viewpoint here.

But you are correct. The entire point of the passage in Job is to show that God is the Creator of all things and that nothing and no one was around prior to his act of creation:

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7)

The Mormon answer to these questions would have to be "I was floating around as an "intelligence", or, "I was with you as your "spirit child", which would then contradict the very point of the passage which is that we were not there.
Sadly, you are correct, sir. But, when someone stakes their entire existence on believing in doctrines that they want to believe so badly, because they have a much more appealing ending for them than those that they've always been taught are wrong (that they can't even begin to understand because their views are so diametrically opposed to them), that they'll just put on their blindfolds, put in their earplugs and turn up the volume on the 'white noise' to drown out any alarm bells that might ring, and wake them up from such a sweet dream. Considering that their church's beliefs oppose the Catholic Church so strongly, I'm afraid that might just leave them in a very bad situation in the end. It really is a very sad situation, indeed.
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  #40  
Old Nov 12, '11, 10:34 pm
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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NCIS fan? Me too.

Anna




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  #41  
Old Nov 13, '11, 1:31 am
freddo freddo is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
Nope; Scripture states that God "forms the spirit of man within him", that is, within the body.

In 1 Corinthians, S. Paul states the "natural" comes first; then the spiritual. There is no spiritual life prior to the natural life; the body comes first.

Apart from the Book of Mormon, there is no support for a human being's premortal existence.

ICXC NIKA
Slight hijack, and I hope I didn't miss it as I read through the thread, but...where is that in 1 Corinthians?
  #42  
Old Nov 13, '11, 7:26 am
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Slight hijack, and I hope I didn't miss it as I read through the thread, but...where is that in 1 Corinthians?
1 Corinthians 15:[33] Be not seduced: Evil communications corrupt good manners. [34] Awake, ye just, and sin not. For some have not the knowledge of God, I speak it to your shame. [35] But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? or with what manner of body shall they come?

[36] Senseless man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die first. [37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be; but bare grain, as of wheat, or of some of the rest. [38] But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body. [39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but one is the flesh of men, another of beasts, another of birds, another of fishes. [40] And there are bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial: but, one is the glory of the celestial, and another of the terrestrial.

[41] One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory. [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. [43] It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. [44] It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: [45] The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

[46] Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. [47] The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.

[51] Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. [55] O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?
Paul refers to our natural progression from our creation as a human being, living on this earth, to our spiritual rebirth that will come in the resurrection. He makes a distinction between our 'natural body' in this mortal world, and our 'spiritual body' (glorified) that we'll have after the resurrection. We are first born into the flesh, then into the spirit. The body of the first Adam is the example of our earthly bodies that all begin in the same way that his did. The second Adam (Jesus) is the example of what we will become when we are 'reborn in the spirit' and take on our glorified flesh to become immortal, in the resurrection, the same way that Jesus did when He rose from the dead. There is no mention whatsoever that we existed in any form before God gave us our earthly bodies, just as Adam didn't exist before God created him and breathed life into him.
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  #43  
Old Nov 13, '11, 9:29 am
Pepband Mom Pepband Mom is offline
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

LDS use Jer 1:5 but in God's mind we existed like a idea, an "ideal" not "real" existence. Jeremiah and us as well has an eternal "ideal' existence in the mind of God, not an actual "real" existence.

Romans 4:17 "...the God who restores the dead to life and calls into being those things which had not been".
Straightforward - calls into being

Eccl 12:7 "then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.."
Dust meaning the human body that returns back to its primary elements, ashes to ashes, dust to dust; to dust we shall return. Nothing here about the "spirit" or soul

Hebrews 12:9 "Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?"
Bodies need cooperation with God to create - Mom & Dad
Souls are His domain alone.
He made them.

re: revelation
God has "revealed" many things to me in my life, He discloses, He prods me. He helps me uncover things. He opens my eyes. He is my Rock. As I get older, I look back & see His hand in my life all over the place.

He lavishes me with His GRACE through His Sacraments but I do not claim "PROPHET STATUS" because of what he "reveals" to me.

There are "revelations"(private) and then there are "Revelations"(Public -ended long ago)
  #44  
Old Nov 13, '11, 10:54 am
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Originally Posted by Telstar View Post




Very cool. Sometimes humor is good in the midst of serious discussion. Please forgive us Steve.

Anna
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  #45  
Old Nov 13, '11, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Very cool. Sometimes humor is good in the midst of serious discussion. Please forgive us Steve.

Anna
I agree. Sometimes things just seem to get way too heavy and serious. I realize there's a time and place for humor, but, once in a while you just need to let it rip. If God didn't have a sense of humor, why would He give us one?
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