Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any? - Page 49

Telstar · #**721** Feb 25, '12, 8:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParkerD

1voice,

Whether Job was a part of the group who were "all the sons of God" who "shouted for joy" is neither stated nor implied one way or the other.

The scripture states clearly that when the foundations of the earth were laid, there were "sons of God" who "shouted for joy." That means before mortal life on this earth began, there was an existing condition for a group identified as the "sons of God". They pre-existed the mortal earth experience, since earth was just barely being "founded" or "formed" as described in Job 38.

As many of us have already said, the "sons of God" referred to throughout the book of Job and many other places in the Bible, are the angels. They're always present when the book of Job refers to Satan, who was once the angel named Lucifer, speaking with God. Remember, when Catholics refer to angels, we understand that they're a completely separate creation from mankind. They're not "spirit children" (aka, pre-mortal human beings) waiting to be born, or the souls of those who have died. They're pure spirits that have no physical form or gender. They were created by God before the earth was formed, so of course, they existed long before any man was ever created.

Telstar · #**722** Feb 25, '12, 9:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParkerD

... Job wasn't really given an opportunity to answer the questions that came to him from God...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1voice

... but Job was given an opportunity ...and did answer:
“Lord, how can I answer You? I’m vile and evil and have no right to question you because I have nothing to say and am ashamed.”

You are saying that the question was not specifically addressed/ answered by Job and so there is no proof that Job was not among the sons of God... I submit, based on your logic, that the opposite conclusion is just as valid and therefore there is no evidence of man's pre existence based on this passage.

Yes indeed, Job did answer God, after a very long tongue lashing that he was given by Him.

[Job 39] [31] And the Lord went on, and said to Job: [32] Shall he that contendeth with God be so easily silenced? surely he that reproveth God, ought to answer him. [33] Then Job answered the Lord, and said: [34] What can I answer, who hath spoken inconsiderately? I will lay my hand upon my mouth. [35] One thing I have spoken, which I wish I had not said: and another, to which I will add no more.

When God scolds you, directly, it's apparently a very humbling experience.

1voice · #**723** Feb 25, '12, 9:33 pm

Originally Posted by 1voice
Parker,
The pre existence of living beings/ Angels and these Sons of God as described in Job ... that dwell in the presence of God, is not in question.
The sons of God, as described in Mormon terms, however, are specifically those that were pre mortal, became men, lived, died and are now (if they completed all that was required) sons of God.
The topic of discussion is specifically related to man's pre mortal existence ... not that of other beings... or other levels of achievement.
How does the passage in Job prove the pre mortal existence of man before he chooses to enter the physical realm ... as described in Mormon thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParkerD

1voice,
I already noted that it doesn't.

Whew! Wow! ... Well we finally got that settled.

Quote:

I also noted that a person clearly, from the teachings of the Bible, has the opportunity to pray about an answer to the question of who were the "sons of God" described in Job 38.

Agreed.

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If a person is going to be sincere in praying about that question, then presumably they will have been sincere enough to try and find other passages that talk about "sons of God"

That is the point of this topic... the 'sincere' question was asked... "Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?"

Quote:

presumably they will have been sincere enough to try and find other passages that talk about the goings on in "heaven" during the time when the "foundations of the earth were laid" and during the time when "mortal life" on earth began.

... Again, that is the point of the topic. A sincere question leading to the sincere sharing/ critique of information leading to a clearer understanding.

ParkerD · #**724** Feb 26, '12, 2:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1voice

Quote:

Quote:
I also noted that a person clearly, from the teachings of the Bible, has the opportunity to pray about an answer to the question of who were the "sons of God" described in Job 38.

Agreed.

Quote:

Quote:
If a person is going to be sincere in praying about that question, then presumably they will have been sincere enough to try and find other passages that talk about "sons of God"

1voice,

Such a person, as they study the words "sons of God", would find the following verses:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Such a person would also find that nowhere does the Bible, in its text, equate or replace the words "sons of God" with the word "angels".

"all the sons of God shouted for joy". All means "all".

rmcmullan · #**725** Feb 26, '12, 7:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

God does not create evil. God created our nature, that of humans as perfect. The world is fallen, Jesus has redeemed the world from its fallen nature. St. Paul speaks to this several times, most often quoted as "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak".

I've heard the same question asked from what would be considered social and moral deviancies. God created me to love X sin. The answer is, of course God did not create you to love whatever sin it is that you love. Love for sin that is greater than love for God is a choice that people make. God gave us free will, he did not give us a desire for sin.

Do you believe God created you to love sin? Do you really think when Jesus teaches to forsake all sin that he's really saying, "I know that I created you with a sinful nature, but you need to get over that?"

Sad way to view yourself and the world if that is how you see it. A cruel and trickster god that is not the God we worship. God created us as His children, children of light not children of darkness.

Sin is a disorder. A person who aligns themselves to the will of God can come to view sin as not a choice at all. Do you believe this is not only possible but being who you are created to be?

Thank you, I agree! But that's what I seem to be hearing. And that's my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He's responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

sallybutler · #**726** Feb 26, '12, 7:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmcmullan

Thank you, I agree! But that's what I seem to be hearing. And that's my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He's responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

In your theory, if you have been around as long as God has been and you will be around as long as He will be, how would He stop you from doing whatever you want? Why do you need God at all?

RebeccaJ · #**727** Feb 26, '12, 8:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmcmullan

Thank you, I agree! But that's what I seem to be hearing. And that's my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He's responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

I think it is apparent that you aren't paying attention to what people are saying.

Miriam1947 · #**728** Feb 26, '12, 8:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmcmullan

Thank you, I agree! But that's what I seem to be hearing. And that's my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He's responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

God created us but that does not mean He is responsible for our choices. Where's that free will choice you believe in?

If you chose to be born to prove yourself then how can you, as an eternal creature equal to God, do any wrong?

TexanKnight · #**729** Feb 26, '12, 8:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

I think it is apparent that you aren't paying attention to what people are saying.

He does not want to hear. To hear is to understand. To understand is to be aware of the the truth. To be aware of the truth is to be Catholic

RebeccaJ · #**730** Feb 26, '12, 8:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanKnight

He does not want to hear. To hear is to understand. To understand is to be aware of the the truth. To be aware of the truth is to be Catholic

Well, outside of this, it is possible to have an understanding of what other people believe without converting to their beliefs. I've met very few Mormons who are able to get out of the "looking for proof of a great apostasy at all times" long enough to actually listen. None here, that I can recall.

Telstar · #**731** Feb 26, '12, 11:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmcmullan

Thank you, I agree! But that's what I seem to be hearing.

Which part of Rebecca's post do you agree with, and why? Your agreement with her seems very vague to me. She mentioned several opposing viewpoints and asked many questions that you completely ignored. Without getting any answers to her questions, there's no way of telling whether or not you really understand anything she said, at all. You certainly seem to take things out of context in people's posts, the same way LDS take phrases out of context from the Bible to 'prove' their points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmcmullan

And that's my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He's responsible for our proclivities, good or evil.

No, He isn't. We have free will to do whatever we please, after He creates us. God creates us to do good, so we can share His love for all eternity. We're the ones that choose to reject God and do evil, because we're more interested in loving ourselves, and having all the pleasures of this mortal existence, than we are with loving God. Eventually, we start to have more in common with the animals, than we do with human beings. We become more and more self-centered, instead of Christ-centered, and end up completely separating ourselves from God and humanity. The most important factor in all goodness is love. Love for God, first, then love for our fellow man. If we don't have true love and respect for God, as well as for all of humanity (including our enemies), then we don't have anything in common with God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmcmullan

Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

We're all here on earth to be tested by God, the same way that He tested Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden, and the angels in Heaven, before them. He doesn't want us to obey Him out of fear of retribution or punishment. He also doesn't want us to obey Him just to earn special rewards that only He can give to us. That's a sure sign of the kind of selfishness and pride that caused Lucifer to fall from God's grace. He only wants us to obey Him out of pure love for Him, because He is Love, and the source of all Goodness. He wants us to choose to love everyone around us, and never to hate anyone.

One thing that I see as a common thread between all of the LDS posters, is that they seem to think that if God created us from nothing, then He must be responsible for all the evil that we choose to do, and would be to blame for all of the evil in this world. The one factor that they seem to ignore in the whole equation, besides our own free will to choose, is the negative influence of the devil. They forget that he also has great influence over us, as long as we're living in this world. It's him that's responsible for tempting us to make evil choices, instead of good ones, the same way he tempted Adam & Eve. He's the only one responsible for all of the evil and corruption in this world, not God. He's the one that tempted Adam & Eve to open the door to evil by eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He knew that if they did, he and his horde of fallen angels (demons) would be set free, to spread corruption throughout the whole world. That was his intent.

LDS don't seem to think he has any influence over them, at all. That's exactly what he wants us all to believe. Just because you think you're somehow "chosen" by God, that doesn't mean that the devil cant tempt you. In fact, the closer you are to God, the more he tempts you to sin, because he wants you to become just like him. The "war in Heaven" between good and evil, is still raging here on earth. It will continue until the Second Coming, when Jesus will judge the living and the dead. Then, Satan and all of his followers (including the souls that are damned) will be bound in hell, forever. They will no longer have any influence over the New Earth. Until that happens, we're all susceptible to his evil influence for as long as we live.

1voice · #**732** Feb 26, '12, 2:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParkerD

1voice,

Such a person, as they study the words "sons of God", would find the following verses:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:14
...those who are led by the Spirit of God ... are sons of God.

Quote:

Such a person would also find that nowhere does the Bible, in its text, equate or replace the words "sons of God" with the word "angels".

Romans 8:14
...those who are led by the Spirit of God ... are sons of God.

Quote:

all the sons of God shouted for joy". All means "all".

... In 1960 my Father and Mother and their 4 children left our home in Pittsburgh and went to visit our cousins across the Mason/ Dixon line in West Virginia to celebrate the Easter holiday. A wonderful time was had by all.
In 1967 my Father and Mother and their 6 children left our home in Pittsburgh and went to visit our cousins across the Mason/Dixon line in West Virginia to celebrate the Easter holiday. A wonderful time was had by all.

1voice · #**733** Feb 26, '12, 2:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmcmullan

If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He's responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

This is God's viewpoint... Clear as can be:
Genesis 2:7
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

1voice · #**734** Feb 26, '12, 4:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParkerD

1voice,

Such a person, as they study would also find that nowhere does the Bible, in its text, equate or replace the words "sons of God" with the word "angels".

An Angel does define/ equate himself with the Sons of God...
"I am a fellow servant ... just like you as well as ... "all" who keep the words of this book " ( They that are led by the Spirit of God ... they are the sons of God)

Revelation 22: 8,9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
But he said, "No, don't worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers the prophets, as well as all who obey what is written in this book. Worship only God!"

soren1 · #**735** Feb 26, '12, 7:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telstar

Which part of Rebecca's post do you agree with, and why? Your agreement with her seems very vague to me. She mentioned several opposing viewpoints and asked many questions that you completely ignored. Without getting any answers to her questions, there's no way of telling whether or not you really understand anything she said, at all. You certainly seem to take things out of context in people's posts, the same way LDS take phrases out of context from the Bible to 'prove' their points.

No, He isn't. We have free will to do whatever we please, after He creates us. God creates us to do good, so we can share His love for all eternity. We're the ones that choose to reject God and do evil, because we're more interested in loving ourselves, and having all the pleasures of this mortal existence, than we are with loving God. Eventually, we start to have more in common with the animals, than we do with human beings. We become more and more self-centered, instead of Christ-centered, and end up completely separating ourselves from God and humanity. The most important factor in all goodness is love. Love for God, first, then love for our fellow man. If we don't have true love and respect for God, as well as for all of humanity (including our enemies), then we don't have anything in common with God.

We're all here on earth to be tested by God, the same way that He tested Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden, and the angels in Heaven, before them. He doesn't want us to obey Him out of fear of retribution or punishment. He also doesn't want us to obey Him just to earn special rewards that only He can give to us. That's a sure sign of the kind of selfishness and pride that caused Lucifer to fall from God's grace. He only wants us to obey Him out of pure love for Him, because He is Love, and the source of all Goodness. He wants us to choose to love everyone around us, and never to hate anyone.

One thing that I see as a common thread between all of the LDS posters, is that they seem to think that if God created us from nothing, then He must be responsible for all the evil that we choose to do, and would be to blame for all of the evil in this world. The one factor that they seem to ignore in the whole equation, besides our own free will to choose, is the negative influence of the devil. They forget that he also has great influence over us, as long as we're living in this world. It's him that's responsible for tempting us to make evil choices, instead of good ones, the same way he tempted Adam & Eve. He's the only one responsible for all of the evil and corruption in this world, not God. He's the one that tempted Adam & Eve to open the door to evil by eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He knew that if they did, he and his horde of fallen angels (demons) would be set free, to spread corruption throughout the whole world. That was his intent.

LDS don't seem to think he has any influence over them, at all. That's exactly what he wants us all to believe. Just because you think you're somehow "chosen" by God, that doesn't mean that the devil cant tempt you. In fact, the closer you are to God, the more he tempts you to sin, because he wants you to become just like him. The "war in Heaven" between good and evil, is still raging here on earth. It will continue until the Second Coming, when Jesus will judge the living and the dead. Then, Satan and all of his followers (including the souls that are damned) will be bound in hell, forever. They will no longer have any influence over the New Earth. Until that happens, we're all susceptible to his evil influence for as long as we live.

Good post. A key point to remember is that evil is not created because evil is not a being. It is a defect in being, that tends towards non-existence. Why we may use the phrase "Creating evil" in a loose sense, it is a contradiction in terms if taken in a strict sence. Evil as such is anti-creation.