Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[batman1973]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

As to your earlier question, several have answered it in this thread, and I also consider that you have taken your "hand to the plow" and should not "look back" since you have taken the plow in hand, or are in the process.

That is a good,honest reply. Thank You

[1voice]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

1voice,

Jesus wasn't quoting Paul's epistle to the Ephesians when He said "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not" (present tense verb). He reminded Peter that he needed to "be converted", which is something that happens in this life for a person who gets the Holy Ghost in their life and listens to the promptings and guidance of the Holy Ghost. They can only do that by having faith in Christ and in the power of His redemption.

So what Peter needed was faith in Christ, and this is what we need also. It is about the "here and now", not about the "hereafter".

Parker,
You have not shown here or in any of your previous responses that Jesus, who "ever intercedes" for us ... did not pray for the salvation of souls. Through the strengthening of our faith ... or through any other facet of God that has been established by God to protect us.

[Telstar]

I wanted to answer this last night, but didn't finish the first part until about 2 AM... well past my bedtime.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Continuation:

Because He knew that this life included "crosses" to bear, while He is doing His work of helping us "be ye therefore perfect" by our becoming more compassionate, repenting often (hopefully repenting daily), forgiving others daily, learning to love others more completely and love God with more devotion and trust.

It was to remind us that we should all bear our own crosses (suffering) as He bore His, with patient humility, and without any anger, animosity or complaint. His carrying of the cross was a very important part of His sacrificial act, that would be the fulfillment of the Jewish practice of offering a lamb on the altar as a holocaust for their sins, during Passover. It represented the sacrificial lamb being led to the slaughter.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

He suffered for our sins as you know, which means no one need think they need to pray as though their own prayer is going to impact that other person's forgiveness from God. Jesus was God the Son, God with us, and could pray that a person's sins be forgiven because He had that mission from His Father in Heaven. We don't have that same mission.

During Passover, there wasn't only one lamb offered to God on the Temple altars. There was one that was offered by the High Priest, for all the sins of Israel, but every individual or family was also expected to make their own offering of a lamb, or doves, etc., during Passover, for the expiation of their own personal sins. They also offered other sacrifices during the year, for the same purpose.

So, when we "take up our cross", we should also offer it up to God, as part of our personal sacrifice for our own sins (our penance), in the same way that the Jews offered their individual sacrifices at the Temple. It's a very important part of how we repay our own personal debt to God, for our own sins. If we aren't willing to carry our own cross and offer it up to God like Jesus did, or if we don't do it very well (by constantly complaining, or being angry about having to suffer), then the benefits we would have gained from our personal sufferings, and the graces that would have come to us by humbly accepting them, are all wasted.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

So the kind of suffering I was discussing was the suffering that involves "our soul" which implies the afterlife and preparing for our resurrection. Jesus suffered for our sins, so we don't have to suffer for our own sins. He also suffered our pains and sicknesses, so that He can succor us and relieve our distresses and ultimately will give us a perfect body in the resurrection.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by all this, since your beliefs are so different from mine. As I said above, we're still required to make offerings to God, to repay what we owe Him, "to the last farthing", for our own sins. It's called doing penance, and is an important part of our "repentance". While Jesus made it possible for us to receive God's forgiveness, we must all do our own part, as well, because none of us is perfect. That's one of the main reasons that suffering still exists in this world, so we can offer it up to God as payment for our sins. But, we can also offer it up for the benefit of others, just as Jesus did. By doing that, we volunteer to do what Simon of Cyrene was forced to do by the Roman soldiers. In our own small way, we also help Jesus carry His heavy cross, to ease His pain.

Jesus suffered for our sins, not to keep us from suffering pain or sickness. He will always comfort us in our pain and sorrow, the same way He always did it for the faithful, in the past. If we ask Him, He will always be there for us, because He's God and He really loves us. What He suffered while He was on earth didn't change the way He helps and comforts us, in this life.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

It was conditional on our repentance, but not on our being prayed for by others regarding our salvation, since He did that sufficiently for all time in His Intercessory prayer.

While what Jesus did throughout His Passion was certainly more than sufficient for all of us, He is still moved by our willingness to "go the extra mile", and in an act of pure love for Him and our fellow men, we do even more than what's required of us, in order to help others who are unable, or unwilling, to do it for themselves. This is how we grow in love and holiness (sanctification), by thinking about and doing for others, over and above what we do for ourselves. God is touched by our little acts of love for Him, and will give us much more than we ask for, in return for that little act of unselfish love.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Mostly for our present day happiness, today and tomorrow and the next day. See the parable of the lilies in the field. Heaven will be a wonderful blessing also, but we ought to understand that living by the commandments blesses us with happiness right now, and following Him blesses us right now with happiness and joy and feelings of love, forgiveness and peace. Those are priceless blessings, right now, today.

I disagree. I believe we should always follow the teachings of Jesus, on earth, because we owe it to Him for all that He has done for us. Also, we should do it so that we can enjoy 'the fruits of our labor', that we plant while we're here in this world, when we're finally rewarded by being able to live forever in Heaven, with Him. So, we really don't just do it to find 'happiness' or anything else for ourselves while we're living in this world. Although, it will always give us great joy and happiness, when we follow Jesus as He taught us to do.

[Telstar]

And, the rest of my response to Parker:

Originally Posted by ParkerD

No, but praying for someone's soul is not part of what is required of anyone. Jesus already did that for all time, for all humankind.

"[Romans 10:1] Brethren, the will of my heart, indeed, and my prayer to God, is for them unto salvation. [2] For I bear them witness, that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they, not knowing the justice of God, and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God."

Then why does Paul say he's praying for the conversion and salvation of others? Is he only praying for the things related to their life on earth, or the actual salvation of their immortal souls?

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Correct. We should have enough faith in Him that we know that through our repentance and trust in Him, that He isn't expecting us to pray for our own salvation, nor anyone else's. A prayer of "God, receive my soul" is a prayer of complete trust and faith and knowing one has been repentant throughout their life and is ready to meet God.

"[Philippians 2:12] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation."

Salvation (eternal life with God) is never guaranteed to anyone, without a lot of hard work and attention on our part. Losing our salvation is something that we should always be aware of being a possibility, while we're making our way toward our personal sanctification in this life. Anyone can lose their salvation, by giving in to despair, or abandoning their faith in God along the way. So, we should always pray for God to help us, as well as others, to persevere in our faith, all the way to the end of our lives.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Because Jesus prayed the Great High Priestly intercessory prayer, and it shows a lack of faith in Him and in His role as our Intercessor and Advocate with the Father.

If we didn't pray for our salvation, and that of our loved ones, then how would God know that we truly desire it with all our heart? If we don't tell Him how much we love Him and long to be with Him, forever, how will He know that we're sincere? How will He know that we're following His Laws out of pure love for Him, and not just for the sake of gaining some kind of personal reward, as if it was a 'payment due', that we somehow think we deserve or earned for ourselves?

Originally Posted by ParkerD

So as you do that, then what God will sustain will be my having the Holy Ghost, and being taught through the Holy Ghost how to answer this kind of a set of questions. So I guess it's OK if you want to do that, just like Paul asked others to pray for his efforts in teaching the gospel.

Actually, I pray that God will open your heart to the real truth, so you can finally discern the true promptings of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't expect that He would ever confirm you in your current beliefs. But, that will certainly be your own choice to make for yourself, when all is said and done. All I can do is try to ignite that little spark of faith and love that's inside you.

[TexanKnight]

[quote=ParkerD;9053747]That quote was talking specifically about people ("enemies") who had driven a peaceful group of settlers who had improved the land and built homes, from their homes and taken over their purchased, improved property that was privately owned having been paid for.


First, LDS were not victims. I can, if you would like, post the truth about Missouri and the army Joseph raised to go to battle. Second, Jesus ALSO had enemies....yet he NEVER spoke like this. More evidence Joseph was not from God.....

If you are suggesting that Jesus taught to allow enemies to do this and get away with it, and for the person whose land is taken over in that way to just "forgive them and love them anyway" and leave the situation with the evil-doers having taken over the land and homes, and that the person not do something about it--then I think you have misunderstood the teaching of Jesus about the kind of enemy He was teaching about.

Ok....if you would read the NT, you would know about "turn the other cheek" and "go with him another mile"......Jesus was being KILLED and he did not talk like this. More proof Joseph was not a prophet.

If you really are suggesting "just forgive them and leave the situation alone", then if the Catholic church were to publicize that as what Jesus taught and what all Catholics are expected to do, then I think they would find some places on earth where there would be unbelievers who would "drive" an owner from his/her home by force, thus breaking the law of the land, and it would mean the Catholic would be expected to just let it go and forgive them.

Ah.....but mere believers are not "prophets". What we do in anger sometimes is NOT what Jesus would want....and Joseph was allegedly speaking for God. Tis is typical of your red herring arguments.....another attempt to compare an alleged prophet with people who do not claim to be.

QUOTE]

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by Telstar

I'd say that the Apostles taught others what Jesus taught them. John clearly stated, not everything that Jesus said and did was written down. There were many things that were only passed on to others through oral tradition, especially in the early days of the Church. The Jews taught scripture to their children orally, because most of them didn't read or write. Praying for others was an early tradition in the Church, including praying for souls.

Telstar,

The belief in "oral tradition" allows any and every belief that the ECF or those who followed them wanted to substantiate. So it means nothing to me as far as demonstrating that the idea of "praying for souls" was part of what the apostles had taught. It is contrary to Jesus' intercessory prayer to think there is a need for anyone to do that, since He is the One Intercessor and the One Advocate with the Father.

Miriam is right. Our "daily bread" refers to the Holy Eucharist that Jesus would ask to be shared by all, in His memory. It's the spiritual food that gives everlasting life, just as Jesus said it would.

Jesus gives everlasting life through His suffering and resurrection, and eternal life through our repentance and His redemptive power and grace because of His atoning sacrifice, the great and last sacrifice.

Isn't our entire existence comprised of both body and soul? If I pray for someone's soul, how am I not praying "for them"?

See your next sentence to observe the difference in intent.

When I pray for someone's salvation, I pray for God to have mercy on them and convert their heart, so they can be saved if they're on the wrong path. If I know someone's living in sin and they won't listen to me if I try to tell them so, I ask God to do it for me, because I love them. God's the one that acts on my prayer, or refuses if He has reasons not to. But, there's always a chance that God will do it because He loves me, that's my hope.

So this last sentence would make a person who does that an intercessor for someone else, and that is my major point--that Jesus is the One and only Perfect Intercessor, and others need not think they have such a role. It sounds to me like it shows a decrease in faith in Christ and in His perfect love for each and every person, individually, one to one.

I'm usually more concerned with the spiritual welfare of other souls than I am with praying for stuff to make my life easier.

Maybe there is "stuff" in one's own life rather than have the perception that others are "living in sin" and have a "spiritual welfare" issue. My point is that Jesus wants to be the Good Shepherd of each person and help each person change through their own personal repentance. If a person is looking at other people's faults, then there is "clutter" in the channel of communication with God.

That's exactly what I pray for when I pray for the salvation of souls. I pray that they'll turn their hearts to God and ask His forgiveness, before it's too late.

Maybe it would be a better idea to let God's timetable be His for others, so that the teaching to not judge others can be fully in place in one's own heart.

Someone will no doubt accuse me of judging, but what I'm trying to express is that the teachings of Jesus were clear that He is the Intercessor, and the apostles upheld this teaching, that only He is the Intercessor for the souls of humankind and for their salvation.

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by Telstar

And, the rest of my response to Parker:

"[Romans 10:1] Brethren, the will of my heart, indeed, and my prayer to God, is for them unto salvation. [2] For I bear them witness, that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they, not knowing the justice of God, and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God."

Then why does Paul say he's praying for the conversion and salvation of others? Is he only praying for the things related to their life on earth, or the actual salvation of their immortal souls?

He wasn't being their intercessor, and he was aware that conversion leads to repentance which leads to accessing the full blessings of the atoning grace of Jesus Christ, who is the Intercessor.

Praying that someone may have the doors open or their heart open to receive the knowledge of Jesus Christ so that they can come unto Him and be saved through His atoning grace, is different than praying "for their salvation" as though the person doing the praying has special access to the throne of God.

"[Philippians 2:12] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation."

Yes, that ties directly to what my earlier post had said regarding individual repentance and individual accountability.

Salvation (eternal life with God) is never guaranteed to anyone, without a lot of hard work and attention on our part. Losing our salvation is something that we should always be aware of being a possibility, while we're making our way toward our personal sanctification in this life. Anyone can lose their salvation, by giving in to despair, or abandoning their faith in God along the way. So, we should always pray for God to help us, as well as others, to persevere in our faith, all the way to the end of our lives.

OK. That sounds like individual accountability and praying to God to "help others", which I agree is a good thing to do.

If we didn't pray for our salvation, and that of our loved ones, then how would God know that we truly desire it with all our heart? If we don't tell Him how much we love Him and long to be with Him, forever, how will He know that we're sincere? How will He know that we're following His Laws out of pure love for Him, and not just for the sake of gaining some kind of personal reward, as if it was a 'payment due', that we somehow think we deserve or earned for ourselves?

I'm not discussing a "payment due", at all. We can have enough faith in Christ to know when He has accepted our efforts, just as Abraham knew he had been counted as a "friend of God." (Isaiah 41:8) (See also Hebrews 11:4 about Abel, verse 5 about Enoch, and then see verse 6 that brings home the message to each of us.)

Actually, I pray that God will open your heart to the real truth, so you can finally discern the true promptings of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't expect that He would ever confirm you in your current beliefs. But, that will certainly be your own choice to make for yourself, when all is said and done. All I can do is try to ignite that little spark of faith and love that's inside you.

This is what I meant by clutter in the communication channel with God. Far better to pray individually, with faith and having repented of personal sins through personal prayer, to "know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." Such knowledge will be by the power of the Holy Spirit, and only through that power--through no other way.

[ParkerD]

Telstar,

As far as the concept in your later post about "doing penance", I now see where this idea originated from, but it is contrary to what Paul taught in Hebrews 10:10-21, and in fact those verses show that Paul was teaching that any idea of the need for further sacrificial offerings for sin such as you have described, seem to have been an idea that had begun to be taught (probably by converted Pharisees) but that he pointedly refuted.

[1voice]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

praying for someone's soul is not part of what is required of anyone. Jesus already did that for all time, for all humankind.

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
...Romans 10:1


According to Gods words in the Bible, through Paul ...It is scriptural.

And again ...
1 Timothy 2:1-5 exhorts us to pray for others: "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

[Pepband Mom]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Telstar,

By the way, I do plan to answer your entire previous post, either tonight or tomorrow morning early. I didn't have time last night nor do I now. All this does bear on the subject of "why we are here in mortality", and on the plan of salvation provided by Father in Heaven for each of us.

your "Father in Heaven" and Our Father in Heaven are not the same individuals. Neither is the LDS theory of the Father's plan of Salvation - Jesus & Satan were "spirit" brothers.; Jesus had a good plan & Satan a bad plan..., that fable appears only on LDS letterhead, was, is and never will be a Christian doctrine.

LDS are really only spinning their wheels until they address the naked core of Mormonism & see it in all honesty for what it really is.

TexanKnight especially has the experience, insight to help you and other LDS posters out of this infinity loop. In all honesty please listen to him. He is there for you!

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by 1voice

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
...Romans 10:1


According to Gods words in the Bible, through Paul ...It is scriptural.

And again ...
1 Timothy 2:1-5 exhorts us to pray for others: "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

1voice,

The KJV translation for Romans 10:1 reads thus:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

One reads the entire passage and finds what Paul's intent is in using the words that translated to "might be saved", thus:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

So those from Israel whom Paul is speaking about (the Jews), need to "call upon him" meaning Christ, believing that "God hath raised him from the dead". It is a personal act each Jew would need to do, and Paul is not implying that he has taken on a role of interceding with God in their behalf.

Here is the Greek word encountered in 1 Timothy 2:1.
ἐντεύξεις ,
intercessions

It is not the same word as in Hebrews 7:25
entynchanein
ἐντυγχάνειν

or in Romans 8:26
entynchanei
ἐντυγχάνει

The Savior's role is a much different sense of the English words "intercessor" and "intercession" than the word Paul used as translated in 1 Timothy 2:1.

[1voice]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

1voice,

The KJV translation for Romans 10:1 reads thus:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

One reads the entire passage and finds what Paul's intent is in using the words that translated to "might be saved", thus:



So those from Israel whom Paul is speaking about (the Jews), need to "call upon him" meaning Christ, believing that "God hath raised him from the dead". It is a personal act each Jew would need to do, and Paul is not implying that he has taken on a role of interceding with God in their behalf.

Here is the Greek word encountered in 1 Timothy 2:1.
ἐντεύξεις ,
intercessions

It is not the same word as in Hebrews 7:25
entynchanein
ἐντυγχάνειν

or in Romans 8:26
entynchanei
ἐντυγχάνει

The Savior's role is a much different sense of the English words "intercessor" and "intercession" than the word Paul used as translated in 1 Timothy 2:1.

I Have an appointment I have to get to and cant respond in depth right now ... But The first thing that comes to mind ... Mormons participate in the process of intercession in the form of baptism/ sealing for people that have died. They feel that they are providing a crucial link in the process of "salvation" for the person that cannot do it without the intercession of a faithful Mormon.

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by 1voice

I Have an appointment I have to get to and cant respond in depth right now ... But The first thing that comes to mind ... Mormons participate in the process of intercession in the form of baptism/ sealing for people that have died. They feel that they are providing a crucial link in the process of "salvation" for the person that cannot do it without the intercession of a faithful Mormon.

1voice,

Latter-day Saints don't call it making "intercession", and it means that they acknowledge that the spirits of the dead are alive, but that baptism for them was just as important as it is for anyone living who is accountable through their own choices. Baptism shows that the person is "burying" their old self and giving themselves to the Good Shepherd so that He can lead them into a newness of life. They can have a newness of life in the spirit world just as much as anyone living can have this.

I can see how one could call it "interceding in their behalf", but it still acknowledges the centrality of the Savior's intercession and does not place the person being baptized or the person doing the baptizing (who is representing the Savior because it is using His priesthood) in some role of interceding toward God on their behalf, but instead says they now have just as much opportunity for an efficacious baptism as anyone living.

The term used for the Savior's intercession is a singular use that had to do with His being the Great High Priest who was able to make the Great and last sacrifice of Himself. This gives everyone personal, hope-filled, direct access to prepare to live in the presence of God through Him and Him alone as the Intercessor and personal Advocate.

[Telstar]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Telstar,

The belief in "oral tradition" allows any and every belief that the ECF or those who followed them wanted to substantiate. So it means nothing to me as far as demonstrating that the idea of "praying for souls" was part of what the apostles had taught. It is contrary to Jesus' intercessory prayer to think there is a need for anyone to do that, since He is the One Intercessor and the One Advocate with the Father.

Parker,

The acceptance of "another gospel", that was not preached by the Apostles but believed to have come from "an angel of light", was vehemently warned against by Paul.

He said this: [Galatians 1:8] "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema."

and this: [2 Corinthians 11:] "[13] For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.".

Yet, LDS choose to follow "another gospel", as well as many other strange doctrines that were never taught by Jesus Christ, but were given to them by Joseph Smith, a man who proclaimed himself to be a prophet that was visited by "an angel of light", but showed no proof of it. There were no miracles wrought by him to support any of his claims. But, there were a great many miracles performed by all of the true Apostles of Jesus, when they preached the only true Gospel. If what Joseph Smith claimed was true, he should have performed hundreds of undeniable miracles in his lifetime, as a sure sign of his calling from God. God always put His stamp of truth on the prophets of old, by giving them the power to perform great miracles in His Name, so people would know that he was truly from God.

Who we choose to believe teaches us the real truth, will make the difference between our attaining salvation, or damnation. That's why it's so important for us to open our hearts and pray, then choose wisely.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Jesus gives everlasting life through His suffering and resurrection, and eternal life through our repentance and His redemptive power and grace because of His atoning sacrifice, the great and last sacrifice.

In reference to "our daily bread", it's very clear what Jesus told us to pray for, and how we obtain everlasting life:
[John 6:] [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. [56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

See your next sentence to observe the difference in intent.

My intention is to pray for souls because God loves them, and so do I.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

So this last sentence would make a person who does that an intercessor for someone else, and that is my major point--that Jesus is the One and only Perfect Intercessor, and others need not think they have such a role. It sounds to me like it shows a decrease in faith in Christ and in His perfect love for each and every person, individually, one to one.

I agree that Jesus is the Mediator between man and God. That's why Catholics pray to Him, directly. We know that He listens and will intercede for us to the Father. We believe all that He taught to His Apostles concerning prayer. There is nothing in the Bible that says we cannot intercede for others. In fact, it says the opposite:
[John 15:7] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.

[John 14:] [13] Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [14] If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.

[Mark 11:] [22] And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God. [23] Amen I say to you, that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but believe, that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him. [24] Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive; and they shall come unto you.

[1 Timothy 2:] [1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It seems that Jesus and the Apostles would disagree with your claim that we shouldn't pray for the salvation of others, or that there's any good intention that we shouldn't pray for, at all. Jesus taught us to pray for whatever good things we desired, and if we had enough faith that we'd receive them, we would. The only things we should never pray for, is anything evil. Praying for the destruction of a soul, to curse others, or praying that anything evil would happen to anyone, is a sure sign of evil intent that comes from the devil. Doing that will call the wrath of God down upon us, instead of the person that we ask God to curse.

[Jerusha]

The only things we should never pray for, is anything evil. Praying for the destruction of a soul, to curse others, or praying that anything evil would happen to anyone, is a sure sign of evil intent that comes from the devil. Doing that will call the wrath of God down upon us, instead of the person that we ask God to curse.

Thank you, Lori.