Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[Miriam1947]

Telstar (no extra 'e' ), the Douay-Rheims Version is my favorite and the one I have has all the words of Christ in red.

Wow better translation but has the KJV red letters.

[zaffiroborant]

Originally Posted by Telstar

directed by the confessor

3: something (as a hardship or penalty) resembling an act of penance (as in compensating for an offense)

The following show quite clearly that the LDS church does indeed impose penances on it's members, primarily by denying privileges, this is a public form of penance since everyone can see that a person has been striped of privileges.

"Much has been written in scripture of that part of true repentance that is confession. It is wholly proper for the transgressor to go to the bishop or stake or mission president and to confess voluntarily the transgressions he has committed. He should be frank and offer the information and answer honestly all the questions propounded to him by that authority. This brings humility and takes courage: The Church’s authority will in confidence hear his story and suggest recovery plans and impose the penalties."

"One form of punishment is deprivation, and so if one is not permitted to partake of the sacrament or to use his priesthood or to go to the temple or to preach or pray in any of the meetings, it constitutes a degree of embarrassment and deprivation and punishment. In fact, the principal punishment that the Church can deal is deprivation from privileges."

"If no penalties are assessed, if no punishment is required, if no deprivation is expected, then what would induce the average transgressor to change his ways?"

The above is from a New Era article by Spencer Kimball the article as a whole addresses "repentance" quite thoroughly but is despairingly short on forgiveness. Such a bleak, hopeless view on God's forgiveness.

Kimball is the author of The Miracle of Forgiveness a book I've seen retitled It's a Miracle if you're Forgiven., and from this quote from the above article I can see why.

To repent of a sin and then to tamper with it again or permit it to invade, even slightly, is to lose the repentance and its beneficent effects, and “the former sins return, saith the Lord God.”(D&C 82:7.)

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by zaffiroborant

The following show quite clearly that the LDS church does indeed impose penances on it's members, primarily by denying privileges, this is a public form of penance since everyone can see that a person has been striped of privileges.


The above is from a New Era article by Spencer Kimball the article as a whole addresses "repentance" quite thoroughly but is despairingly short on forgiveness. Such a bleak, hopeless view on God's forgiveness.

Kimball is the author of The Miracle of Forgiveness a book I've seen retitled It's a Miracle if you're Forgiven., and from this quote from the above article I can see why.

Thanks, Zaffiroborant, for providing the link to the article itself, thus providing the opportunity for a reader to see the context about loss of privileges when repenting completely for sexual sins.

The article will make more sense about the forgiveness part of God's love to one who has a background about "Alma" such that they would know of his clarion call about how it feels to be forgiven by God, and how sweet that joy is.

[Jerusha]

Penance is something willingly taken on, not something imposed on the person. Jesus is sufficient, but out of love for Him, we can do more. "Three Our Fathers and three Hail Mary's" isn't exactly burdensome.

[zaffiroborant]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Thanks, Zaffiroborant, for providing the link to the article itself, thus providing the opportunity for a reader to see the context about loss of privileges when repenting completely for sexual sins.

The article will make more sense about the forgiveness part of God's love to one who has a background about "Alma" such that they would know of his clarion call about how it feels to be forgiven by God, and how sweet that joy is.

We not only know the joy of having the burden of ours sins lifted through forgiveness we are also sure of our forgiveness knowing it will not be rescinded. We know that we are not expected to overcome sin perfectly the first time, that though we make the same mistakes, commit the same sins, when we come to Christ with a broken and contrite heart, we will be forgiven and He will not snatch it away from us.
We are assured of our forgiveness, I see no assurance from Kimball or other articles just more like this:

“But unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return.” 10 Joseph Smith declared: “Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not … pleasing in the sight of God.”

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by zaffiroborant

We not only know the joy of having the burden of ours sins lifted through forgiveness we are also sure of our forgiveness knowing it will not be rescinded. We know that we are not expected to overcome sin perfectly the first time, that though we make the same mistakes, commit the same sins, when we come to Christ with a broken and contrite heart, we will be forgiven and He will not snatch it away from us.
We are assured of our forgiveness, I see no assurance from Kimball or other articles just more like this:

Zaffiroborant,

A Latter-day Saint who has repented of either a one-time sin or of a pattern of repeated sins that were similar, knows the joy of the forgiveness from God because they feel joyfully forgiven by Him and are aware of the atoning grace of the Savior. They are also aware of having made covenants, and of having entered back into the covenant relationship with Jesus Christ wherein they will feel both His confidence in them and the power of having faith and trust in Him.

With that confidence they feel from Him and the trust they place in Him, they will not return to their prior sin because it is foreign to what they want in their life. This is because they have felt the change within their heart, and know the joy that change has brought into their life.

[TexanKnight]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Zaffiroborant,

A Latter-day Saint who has repented of either a one-time sin or of a pattern of repeated sins that were similar, knows the joy of the forgiveness from God because they feel joyfully forgiven by Him and are aware of the atoning grace of the Savior. They are also aware of having made covenants, and of having entered back into the covenant relationship with Jesus Christ wherein they will feel both His confidence in them and the power of having faith and trust in Him.

With that confidence they feel from Him and the trust they place in Him, they will not return to their prior sin because it is foreign to what they want in their life. This is because they have felt the change within their heart, and know the joy that change has brought into their life.

Thank goodness that Jesus is more forgiving than the LDS Church

[zaffiroborant]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Zaffiroborant,



With that confidence they feel from Him and the trust they place in Him, they will not return to their prior sin because it is foreign to what they want in their life. This is because they have felt the change within their heart, and know the joy that change has brought into their life.

Until you I have never seen an LDS claim they don't commit the same sin more than once.

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by zaffiroborant

Until you I have never seen an LDS claim they don't commit the same sin more than once.

Zaffiroborant,

The subject that became the discussion point introduced by the article from President Kimball that you cited is "sexual sin", and particularly involves youth since the article came from the LDS youth magazine, "The New Era".

The article was urging LDS youth to recognize the seriousness of sexual sins, and to recognize the urgency of sincerely repenting.

There are indeed LDS youth who sincerely repent of a sexual sin and don't commit the same sin again.

I hope to be able to assume that there are Catholic youth who also sincerely repent of a sexual sin and don't commit the same sin again. Is that a safe assumption, or am I wrong in that assumption?

[RebeccaJ]

I think it is important to note that Mormons teach that if a person commits the same sin, the previous instance of that sin is no longer forgiven.

[batman1973]

I remember a sign that was put up in our Primary room:"Before your baptized, God writes in pencil. After your baptized, He writes in ink!" Great, twisted way to tell kids about forgiveness! I believe it's the other way around.

[RebeccaJ]

Originally Posted by batman1973

I remember a sign that was put up in our Primary room:"Before your baptized, God writes in pencil. After your baptized, He writes in ink!" Great, twisted way to tell kids about forgiveness! I believe it's the other way around.

Yeah, I remember as a kid lying awake at night in shear terror. Worried over that ink and the teaching that now you're baptized, you are fair game for everything evil under the sun.

[TexanKnight]

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ

Yeah, I remember as a kid lying awake at night in shear terror. Worried over that ink and the teaching that now you're baptized, you are fair game for everything evil under the sun.

I had a sign on my mission that said "for everything you did today, you WILL be judged!"

was always afraid

[zaffiroborant]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Zaffiroborant,

The subject that became the discussion point introduced by the article from President Kimball that you cited is "sexual sin", and particularly involves youth since the article came from the LDS youth magazine, "The New Era".

The article was urging LDS youth to recognize the seriousness of sexual sins, and to recognize the urgency of sincerely repenting.

There are indeed LDS youth who sincerely repent of a sexual sin and don't commit the same sin again.

I hope to be able to assume that there are Catholic youth who also sincerely repent of a sexual sin and don't commit the same sin again. Is that a safe assumption, or am I wrong in that assumption?

Neither article I referred was discussing "sexual sin" this one discussed
repentance and this one discussed forgiveness, and I certainly didn't introduce "sexual sin" to the conversation. This is totally out of left field.

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by zaffiroborant

Neither article I referred was discussing "sexual sin" this one discussed
repentance and this one discussed forgiveness, and I certainly didn't introduce "sexual sin" to the conversation. This is totally out of left field.

Zaffiroborant,

I guess I made two assumptions:

1) That you had read somewhat about Corianton the son of Alma who was receiving the counsel of his father presented in Alma 42 but which began in Alma 39, thus:

The commandments of Alma to his son Corianton.
Comprising chapters 39 to 42 inclusive.
Chapter 39 (Chapter Heading)
Sexual sin is an abomination—Corianton’s sins kept the Zoramites from receiving the word—Christ’s redemption is retroactive in saving the faithful who preceded it. About 74 B.C.

2) That you had some awareness through previous conversations with Latter-day Saints, that when a sin is serious enough for a confession to a bishop, and this sin was by a youth, then it is most likely because of a sexual sin. All the pointed remarks used by President Kimball in the latter part of that article point toward a sin that often necessitated a probation from partaking of communion, which would usually mean it was a sexual sin.

Here is a section of the article:

To lie about serious sins is to add fuel to the fire and heat to its flames.

Very frequently people think they have repented and are worthy of forgiveness when all they have done is to express sorrow or regret at the unfortunate happening, but their repentance is barely started. Until they have begun to make changes in their lives, transformation in their habits, and to add new thoughts to their minds, to be sorry is only a bare beginning.

Much has been written in scripture of that part of true repentance that is confession. It is wholly proper for the transgressor to go to the bishop or stake or mission president and to confess voluntarily the transgressions he has committed. He should be frank and offer the information and answer honestly all the questions propounded to him by that authority. This brings humility and takes courage: The Church’s authority will in confidence hear his story and suggest recovery plans and impose the penalties.

In transgressions of lesser magnitude he may place the person on probation or in the more serious ones he may disfellowship or excommunicate.

So these are the reasons that I assumed someone who had the background of having studied somewhat about Latter-day Saints and learned somewhat about the very few kinds of sins that require "confession to the bishop", would understand that President Kimball was alluding to sexual sins.