Baptism and the Thief on the Cross - Page 3

nickybr38 · #31 Dec 6, '11, 1:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nelka

Where?

I've seen many places online where people twist scripture so that homosexuality is supported rather then discouraged.

I'm just saying the Bible can seem to say anything you want it to say if you proof text (which is what most Protestants do)

nickybr38 · #32 Dec 6, '11, 1:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholicpotato

Dialogue is imperative. But I think that many Catholics should be more Biblically literate. We are letting people use our own Book against us.

There's nothing wrong with being Biblically literate... but getting into a Bible debate with a Protestant is pretty much a waste of time. No matter how firm your arguments and how many Bible verses you have in your back pocket if it doesn't match what they interpret it to mean you're fighting a pointless battle.

PJM · #33 Dec 6, '11, 3:00 pm

Quote:

=nickybr38;8660518]I hate debating Protestants... because the tool they use is the Bible and any Bible verse can be cherry picked to prove almost any point. The Bible is used to support homosexuality for pities sake!!! It's so difficult to debate anything with Protestants because it's like running around in circles chasing the tail of bible verse after bible verse with no real conclusion.

I let the Holy Spirit speak to Protestants. I choose not to.

ALWAYS insist on this TRUTH.

Never, EVER, can one part of the Bible contradict another. IMPOSSIBLE!

Were this not the absolute and Infallible truth the Bible would be worthless as a teaching or learning tool.

From this UNDERSTANDING; one ought to be able to discover and share The Singular truths of re Catholic Faith.

God Bless,
Pat

nickybr38 · #34 Dec 6, '11, 3:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

ALWAYS insist on this TRUTH.

Never, EVER, can one part of the Bible contradict another. IMPOSSIBLE!

Were this not the absolute and Infallible truth the Bible would be worthless as a teaching or learning tool.

From this UNDERSTANDING; one ought to be able to discover and share The Singular truths of re Catholic Faith.

God Bless,
Pat

Good advice Pat. Unfortunately the Protestants I've debated refuse to see this! But I don't back down. No worries.

That's why I'm so disliked! Haha.

Catholicpotato · #35 Dec 6, '11, 3:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

There's nothing wrong with being Biblically literate... but getting into a Bible debate with a Protestant is pretty much a waste of time. No matter how firm your arguments and how many Bible verses you have in your back pocket if it doesn't match what they interpret it to mean you're fighting a pointless battle.

Usually they are regurgitating something that someone told them about the Bible. If you can explain context to them they usually back right down. I suppose it can be frustrating but we are called to bring the Gospel and Truth into the world, protestants and all. If you are frustrated with the ammo you have, perhaps it is time to upgrade the weapon. Sounds like some Bible study could do some good here.

nickybr38 · #36 Dec 6, '11, 3:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholicpotato

Usually they are regurgitating something that someone told them about the Bible. If you can explain context to them they usually back right down. I suppose it can be frustrating but we are called to bring the Gospel and Truth into the world, protestants and all. If you are frustrated with the ammo you have, perhaps it is time to upgrade the weapon. Sounds like some Bible study could do some good here.

I know my Bible.

I argue context... it doesn't make a difference.

*sigh* It doesn't matter to the Protestants I've debated. The Holy Spirit shows them exactly what that verse means and no amount of history, context or firm logic will sway them.

**LilyM** · #37 Dec 6, '11, 3:52 pm

Not only did Jesus command the Apostles to baptize, but they followed His command by insisting that every person they converted undergo baptism.

Imagine the scene on Pentecost - 3000 converts! even if all 120 people in the upper room were baptizing, they would've had to deal with almost thirty baptisms each. It would've been the perfect time to dispense with baptism if it were unnecessary but it was insisted upon.

Catholicpotato · #38 Dec 6, '11, 4:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

Good advice Pat. Unfortunately the Protestants I've debated refuse to see this! But I don't back down. No worries.

That's why I'm so disliked! Haha.

You are free to feel that way but all I hear is "Good advice! Here is why I cant do it."
Perhaps it isn't your forte. Perhaps converting Muslims is!

nickybr38 · #39 Dec 7, '11, 8:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholicpotato

You are free to feel that way but all I hear is "Good advice! Here is why I cant do it."
Perhaps it isn't your forte. Perhaps converting Muslims is!

??? You really seem to be missing my point (as have others here). I wonder if people even heard the call in question? I think it might be wise to listen to the show in question because it is a prime example of what debating Protestants sounds like:

Protestant: "This is what I think the Bible says."

Apologist: "Yeah, but here are verses that contradict what you think the Bible says."

Protestant: "THIS IS WHAT I THINK THE BIBLE SAYS!!!"

Not ALL Protestants debate like this but it sure feels like it.

As to your comment about converting to Islam - no thanks. This is a discussion about debating those outside my faith, as prompted by this particular radio show. This isn't a discussion about how strong my faith is. Just because one cannot debate their faith with a certain subgroup does not mean their faith is weak and they need a new religion... what a silly idea.

nickybr38 · #40 Dec 7, '11, 8:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Not only did Jesus command the Apostles to baptize, but they followed His command by insisting that every person they converted undergo baptism.

Imagine the scene on Pentecost - 3000 converts! even if all 120 people in the upper room were baptizing, they would've had to deal with almost thirty baptisms each. It would've been the perfect time to dispense with baptism if it were unnecessary but it was insisted upon.

I have a Christian friend whom I've been speaking to for about a year about baptism. She refuses to hear that it's necessary (she is not baptized). I've used this argument, it didn't sway her. But it's still a good argument.

cemiller · #41 Dec 7, '11, 10:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

??? You really seem to be missing my point (as have others here). I wonder if people even heard the call in question? I think it might be wise to listen to the show in question because it is a prime example of what debating Protestants sounds like:

Protestant: "This is what I think the Bible says."

Apologist: "Yeah, but here are verses that contradict what you think the Bible says."

Protestant: "THIS IS WHAT I THINK THE BIBLE SAYS!!!"

Not ALL Protestants debate like this but it sure feels like it.

As to your comment about converting to Islam - no thanks. This is a discussion about debating those outside my faith, as prompted by this particular radio show. This isn't a discussion about how strong my faith is. Just because one cannot debate their faith with a certain subgroup does not mean their faith is weak and they need a new religion... what a silly idea.

I do believe that Catholicpotato was talking about converting Muslims could be more your cup of soup rather then converting Protestants. I don't think he/she was suggesting that you convert to Islam.

nickybr38 · #42 Dec 7, '11, 10:12 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cemiller

I do believe that Catholicpotato was talking about converting Muslims could be more your cup of soup rather then converting Protestants. I don't think he/she was suggesting that you convert to Islam.

OOOH! Haha! Well, um, if that indeed was what he was saying then I was unduly irritated.

I have had better experiences discussing religion with non-Christians...

Catholicpotato · #43 Dec 7, '11, 12:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

??? You really seem to be missing my point (as have others here). I wonder if people even heard the call in question? I think it might be wise to listen to the show in question because it is a prime example of what debating Protestants sounds like:Um, I am the one that posted the thread to begin with. I heard the call.

Protestant: "This is what I think the Bible says."

Apologist: "Yeah, but here are verses that contradict what you think the Bible says."Woah woah woah, here is your problem. Instead of showing them verses that contradict try explaining Jewish theology, history, customs and translate that to the bigger salvation plan. Your example of a conversation will obviously fail. Making it a longer conversation filled with facts will definitely have a better result than your I'm right, No! I'm right fight.

Protestant: "THIS IS WHAT I THINK THE BIBLE SAYS!!!"In your conversation why is the protestant yelling and freaking out. If you handle it logically and tactfully that will rarely happen.

Not ALL Protestants debate like this but it sure feels like it.well.......maybe calvanists........

As to your comment about converting to Islam - no thanks. This is a discussion about debating those outside my faith, as prompted by this particular radio show. This isn't a discussion about how strong my faith is. Just because one cannot debate their faith with a certain subgroup does not mean their faith is weak and they need a new religion... what a silly idea .Obviously you misread what I said and that was corrected below but I Think it is a good example of how you might make a mistake talking to protestants. There was no need to get defensive and freak out. Your passion for faith is obvious. There just may be better avenues for you than debating the next Matt Slick.

This is how it should go......

nickybr38 · #44 Dec 7, '11, 12:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholicpotato

This is how it should go......

I get much more irritated online then I do in person, no worries there. Sorry for misunderstanding you.

In my example the Protestant is 'yelling' but I meant it more to demonstrate how they dig their heels in.

I don't know if I'm just debating particularly stubborn Protestants but the ones I've debated don't care about Jewish theology, history or anything of that nature. All that matters, to them, is the Bible. Period. The history of an event means nothing. The original language of the text means nothing. They just want a Bible verse that says in plain English what they want to believe and yet when you give them that Bible verse they still refuse to see reason because the Holy Spirit is guiding them to interpret it differently then you are and of course their link to the Holy Spirit is better then yours... Argh. So frustrating.

Have you debated many Protestants I wonder? Maybe I'm just having really bad luck... I am dealing with people who don't care about logic, history, tradition, culture... they only see what they see and it's impossible to help them see anything different. I suppose everyone can be like that...

Anyway, what prompted all my ranting was the idea that more Bible verses should have been thrown at the caller in question. It would have done no good. Bible verses get you no where when you're debating with a Protestant. Mind you, history, tradition, Jewish culture will rarely get you anywhere either. Haha. Really, I think, the best way to debate a Protestant is just good firm logic... and a calm head (which, admittedly, I don't seem to have online!).

Catholicpotato · #45 Dec 7, '11, 1:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickybr38

I get much more irritated online then I do in person, no worries there. Sorry for misunderstanding you.

In my example the Protestant is 'yelling' but I meant it more to demonstrate how they dig their heels in.

I don't know if I'm just debating particularly stubborn Protestants but the ones I've debated don't care about Jewish theology, history or anything of that nature. All that matters, to them, is the Bible. Period. The history of an event means nothing. The original language of the text means nothing. They just want a Bible verse that says in plain English what they want to believe and yet when you give them that Bible verse they still refuse to see reason because the Holy Spirit is guiding them to interpret it differently then you are and of course their link to the Holy Spirit is better then yours... Argh. So frustrating.

Have you debated many Protestants I wonder? Maybe I'm just having really bad luck... I am dealing with people who don't care about logic, history, tradition, culture... they only see what they see and it's impossible to help them see anything different. I suppose everyone can be like that...

Anyway, what prompted all my ranting was the idea that more Bible verses should have been thrown at the caller in question. It would have done no good. Bible verses get you no where when you're debating with a Protestant. Mind you, history, tradition, Jewish culture will rarely get you anywhere either. Haha. Really, I think, the best way to debate a Protestant is just good firm logic... and a calm head (which, admittedly, I don't seem to have online!).

Yeah, I live in Mormon land and about two blocks from Matt Slick(If you are not familiar with him he runs a national radio show and CARM.com Jimmy Akin debated him once, Matt is a piece of work) so I get to debate a ton. Mostly with the protestants you are describing it isn't that they don't care about logic (in fact most Bible schools drill debating and logic into them) It is that they have been told certain bullet points and those points need to be deconstructed if you have any hope of a dialogue. If there is not dialogue then just offer to talk to them when they have time to delve into the subject. Two years ago I sponsored two Mormon Missionaries that came to my door weekly for religion chats. Now they have drivers licences and go to Mass! (honestly, I will never understand the logic of putting 19 year old boys in charge of your missionary aspect of converting people...)
Many hard core evangelicals really do feel that they "know" way more than you do and that can be hard to combat. But just like their favorite Apostle, they have to get knocked on their rears just to see the light sometimes!