Official Eastern Orthodox teaching: Immaculate Conception

[OrthodoxJosh]

[quote=Marybeloved;8631677]People, my questions were these:

Was the Virgin filled with grace at her conception or alternatively throughout her existence?

It seems impossible for people to answer these two questions w/out referring to their perceived understanding of catholic teaching.


The reason you are not getting the answer you are looking for is because you are asking a question that is strictly from a western perspective. As others have already said, we do not dwell on the "when's" and "how's" of the working of God. We simply accept the faith that God has delivered to us, and allow somethings to remain a mystery. There is no Orthodox teaching on whether or not the Mother of God was filled with grace at a certain time. She just was, and that's enough for us.

[Marybeloved]

Originally Posted by adoglover1956

You are absolutely correct. They are not obsessed with details but rather faith. I think I answered the question correctly...but was ignored. I guess it takes time to be accepted. Gee...I think I've even been lectured by marybeloved.

I think you need to reread your post. You said absolutely nothing about my two questions. You talked about Orthodox objection to the IC dogma, about her sinlessnes etc- and nothing about Mary being filled with grace, which is what I asked. Mickey later understood and gave me the answer I was looking for. I have my answer- The Orthodox have no theology on the precise moment when Mary was filled with grace, though they believe she was- simple!

PS:- If you call making a clarification as to the kind of answer I am looking for "lecturing you" then I have to wonder if you're interested in helping answer a question that has been asked or impose one so you can give an answer I already know and I'm not really interested in-

Peace.

[Hesychios]

Originally Posted by Marybeloved

Great- So it's Orthodox teaching that Mary was filled with Grace throughout her life? That's what I wanted to know.

What is grace to you?

How do you define it?

[Marybeloved]

Originally Posted by Hesychios

What is grace to you?

How do you define it?

The indwelling of the Blessed Trinity in the Soul, or the life of God in the Soul.

[Marie5890]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

Unlike the Latin Rite where everything must be dealt with in absolute, the Eastern praxis is fine with leaving some loose ends. We can't pretend we know everything, only God knows everything. We are fine with some things being left as a mystery.

I love this about Orthodoxy. They are fine with living with and in the Mystery of God and dont feel a need, a desperation, and an (what seems to me) ego-driven "must" to have everything spelled out.

It's simply a beautiful element of trust and faith in God and living it out.

[Marie5890]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxJosh

we do not dwell on the "when's" and "how's" of the working of God. We simply accept the faith that God has delivered to us, and allow somethings to remain a mystery. There is no Orthodox teaching on whether or not the Mother of God was filled with grace at a certain time. She just was, and that's enough for us.

Absolutely beautiful! So faith-filled. So trusting.

I wish there was an Orthodox church near-by for me to visit.

[mark a]

I read here once this explanation. I have no idea if it is correct:

If Mary was conceived without original sin instead of being saved from original sin after she was conceived (possibly like John the Baptist), she would not have grown old and died (or been assumed just prior to her death, whichever the case may be).

In fact, the Orthodox poster insisted that the Orthodox view of Mary's conception confirmed the Othodox view of the assumption (whichever it is).

Anyway, I'm just passing this along. No need to shoot the messenger.

[ConstantineTG]

Originally Posted by Marie5890

I love this about Orthodoxy. They are fine with living with and in the Mystery of God and dont feel a need, a desperation, and an (what seems to me) ego-driven "must" to have everything spelled out.

It's simply a beautiful element of trust and faith in God and living it out.

Me too, that is why I have become Eastern Catholic. The problem with too detailed definitions is sometimes people lose the big picture.

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by Marie5890

I love this about Orthodoxy. They are fine with living with and in the Mystery of God and dont feel a need, a desperation, and an (what seems to me) ego-driven "must" to have everything spelled out.

It's simply a beautiful element of trust and faith in God and living it out.

To a point, I agree with you. I believe that there is a time and a place to chalk things up to being one of God's mysteries. And you are correct in my view that it is one of the beautiful aspects of the Eastern tradition.

However I think you take things a bit too far in your analysis. For example, I would say that one of the things I find that I love most about Catholicism is that there is (to use your words) a need or even a desperation have everything spelled out. However, I would further suggest that this does not have to be viewed as ego, nor does it imply a lack of trust or faith in God. It can simply be viewed as a yearning desire to know more about Him.

Just as it is difficult for one person to love another if they do not know them, it can be hard for many people to love God in the manner in which they are called, without seeking some understanding of who God is. The study and contemplation of God and His mysteries has led to the development and writing of some of the Catholic Church's greatest saints. Saints Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, etc. all spent their lives trying to understand God's mysteries. Were those lives wasted? Did they do it from ego, or a lack of faith and trust? Or, as I am suggesting here, were they simply trying to know God more fully and through that knowledge, love Him more deeply?

[Marie5890]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

To a point, I agree with you. I believe that there is a time and a place to chalk things up to being one of God's mysteries. And you are correct in my view that it is one of the beautiful aspects of the Eastern tradition.

However I think you take things a bit too far in your analysis. For example, I would say that one of the things I find that I love most about Catholicism is that there is (to use your words) a need or even a desperation have everything spelled out. However, I would further suggest that this does not have to be viewed as ego, nor does it imply a lack of trust or faith in God. It can simply be viewed as a yearning desire to know more about Him.

Just as it is difficult for one person to love another if they do not know them, it can be hard for many people to love God in the manner in which they are called, without seeking some understanding of who God is. The study and contemplation of God and His mysteries has led to the development and writing of some of the Catholic Church's greatest saints. Saints Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, etc. all spent their lives trying to understand God's mysteries. Were those lives wasted? Did they do it from ego, or a lack of faith and trust? Or, as I am suggesting here, were they simply trying to know God more fully and through that knowledge, love Him more deeply?

I do see the point you are making, and in many ways it's valid.

But a lot of the dogma and legalism that is in the Catholic Church goes to an extreme that reminds me of what Christ Himself was pushing back against w/the Pharisees and scribes, etc.

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"-esque sort of scenerio.

Like ConstineTG says, its like people forget the big picture they are so focused on the threads of the overall tapestry, and not the tapestry itself

[Marie5890]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

Me too, that is why I have become Eastern Catholic. The problem with too detailed definitions is sometimes people lose the big picture.

Agreed. I have noticed that tendency, too

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by Marie5890

I do see the point you are making, and in many ways it's valid.

But a lot of the dogma and legalism that is in the Catholic Church goes to an extreme that reminds me of what Christ Himself was pushing back against w/the Pharisees and scribes, etc.

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"-esque sort of scenerio.

Like ConstineTG says, its like people forget the big picture they are so focused on the threads of the overall tapestry, and not the tapestry itself

I believe you are misinterpreting the passages in Sacred Scripture discussing the Pharisees but I will leave off. I don't want to derail the thread anymore than I already have...

[Marybeloved]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

I believe you are misinterpreting the passages in Sacred Scripture discussing the Pharisees but I will leave off. I don't want to derail the thread anymore than I already have...

You're right, jwinch. And if the point you were responding to were truly valid, then it would make absolute nonsense of the first millennium of Christianity where the nature of God and of Christ and many truths of the faith were hushed out and taught in the terms that we all take for granted today. I suppose the Fathers were just a bunch of ego-driven pharisees, no? Trying to understand and teach the true nature of God instead of just "trusting" and living out the mysteries.

And you're right- Our Lord criticized the hypocrisy of the pharisees, never their desire to know God and understand the truths that he himself had revealed to men.

[Marie5890]

I guess some people have a need to have things more defined to feel closer and to understand God more; others dont need that nearly as much.

As far as ego-driven, my general experience of observation is that as broken human beings, we really tend to be ego-driven more so than not. I dont think humility comes as easy to each of us as we would like or think that it does.

But then I listen to Abp Sheen's teachings a great deal and he talks extensively on human ego and how it effect us and gets in our way. So it's something I am aware of.

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Marie5890

I dont think humility comes as easy to each of us as we would like or think that it does.

It is a life long struggle that can only be acquired by the grace of God.