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  #1  
Old Dec 14, '11, 8:21 pm
James_2:24 James_2:24 is offline
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Default The 4 cups of the Last Supper

I'm sure some of you have heard Scott Hahn's talk entitled: "The 4th cup". I have a quick question regarding these cups of the Last Supper: Where are the 1st two cups? I understand the 3rd cup to be the cup of Jesus' blood, and the 4th cup to be the wine on the hyssop branch on the Cross... but where are the first 2?
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  #2  
Old Dec 14, '11, 9:07 pm
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triumphguy triumphguy is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

The "cup" (take this cup from me) at the Garden of Gethsemane, and the cup of wine at the meal?
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  #3  
Old Dec 14, '11, 9:07 pm
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

Here's a link to a transcript of the talk

http://webpages.marshall.edu/~trimbol3/4thcup4.htm

It's a bit hard to read (red letters on a red background).
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  #4  
Old Dec 14, '11, 9:44 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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Originally Posted by triumphguy View Post
The "cup" (take this cup from me) at the Garden of Gethsemane, and the cup of wine at the meal?
The cup of wine at the wedding in Cana?
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  #5  
Old Dec 14, '11, 9:49 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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Originally Posted by FrDavid96 View Post
Here's a link to a transcript of the talk

http://webpages.marshall.edu/~trimbol3/4thcup4.htm

It's a bit hard to read (red letters on a red background).
That's a scary site, I'm not sure it's legitimate. What does this mean, anyway? (bottom left)

Quote:
The Catholic Resource Network is a Catholic online information and service system. To browse CRNET or join, set your modem to 8 data bits, 1 stop bit and no parity, and call 1-703-791-4336.
I think the "Catholic Resource Network" might be a kid in a basement. I have no idea what following those instructions might do.
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  #6  
Old Dec 14, '11, 11:33 pm
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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Originally Posted by James_2:24 View Post
I'm sure some of you have heard Scott Hahn's talk entitled: "The 4th cup". I have a quick question regarding these cups of the Last Supper: Where are the 1st two cups? I understand the 3rd cup to be the cup of Jesus' blood, and the 4th cup to be the wine on the hyssop branch on the Cross... but where are the first 2?
During the Jewish Passover meal the third cup is called "The Cup of Blessing." St Paul in 1 Cor 10:16 calls the Eucharistic cup," The Cup of Blessing.". Thus, the cup that Jesus blessed at the Last Supper would be the third cup. The first two cups were not mentioned presumably because the emphasis was on the third cup, when normally they would eat the lamb. But, instead of that, Jesus offers himself as the new Lamb who's flesh must be eaten.

The emphasis was on establishing a New Covenant through the Body and Blood of Jesus, offered as the Eucharist and sacrificed on the cross. Any Jew in the first century could reckognise the form of the Passover meal in the description of the Last Supper. Thus, not every detail would need to be spelled out. Instead the important factors were emphasized.
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  #7  
Old Dec 15, '11, 4:45 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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Originally Posted by fisherman carl View Post
During the Jewish Passover meal the third cup is called "The Cup of Blessing." St Paul in 1 Cor 10:16 calls the Eucharistic cup," The Cup of Blessing.". Thus, the cup that Jesus blessed at the Last Supper would be the third cup. The first two cups were not mentioned presumably because the emphasis was on the third cup, when normally they would eat the lamb. But, instead of that, Jesus offers himself as the new Lamb who's flesh must be eaten.

The emphasis was on establishing a New Covenant through the Body and Blood of Jesus, offered as the Eucharist and sacrificed on the cross. Any Jew in the first century could reckognise the form of the Passover meal in the description of the Last Supper. Thus, not every detail would need to be spelled out. Instead the important factors were emphasized.
Actually, AFAIK the cups of wine really have no formal designations in Judaism. There is the Ashkenazic custom of filling the 'Cup of Elijah after the third cup (and the 'Cup of Miriam' that some also fill beside Elijah's at this point, just to be gender-equal ), but beyond this, the cups are just called, for lack of a better term, 'first cup' or 'second cup' and so on. Now a number of folks today (mostly Christians or Messianic Jews) may try to apply different names for each cup, but these are all unofficial, and the names could vary depending on the Seder.

With all due respect to Mr. Hahn, I think that the one flaw in his interpretation (which I once held actually) is the assumption that Passover meals during the Second Temple period were performed like modern Seders. On the contrary, it is more likely that the Passover meal - like many other aspects of Judaism - was not yet fully developed in Jesus' time and was yet still in a fluid, unfixed, evolving form. We can't just assume that the ritual stayed as it was after more than 2000 years; we must reconstruct, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to reconstruct exactly what happened in a 1st century Passover celebration.

We do know the basic structure and the basic elements of a Passover meal, but what I'm saying is that it is hard to reenact in detail what Jews two millenia would have specifically done. It's not like they had Haggadahs handy like today. I almost expect that every household or every community would have had their own 'flavor' of celebrating the feast, doing things as their fathers and their fathers before them have done. While rabbinic works such as the Mishna and the Talmud does purport to transmit the way many things were done in those days when the Temple still stood, we can't be too reliant on them and take them on face value as sources for Second Temple Judaism, since it seems that they often actually reflect more 'how we (the rabbis) would have wanted things done' than 'how things were done'. In short, more of an ideal fantasy than historical reality.
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  #8  
Old Dec 15, '11, 7:47 am
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
That's a scary site, I'm not sure it's legitimate. What does this mean, anyway? (bottom left)
I only posted the link because it has a transcript of what the OP was trying to remember.


Quote:
I think the "Catholic Resource Network" might be a kid in a basement. I have no idea what following those instructions might do.
Then I suggest you don't follow the instructions.

"set your modem to 8 data bits, 1 stop bit and no parity"
was how we used to do things "in the olden days"
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  #9  
Old Dec 15, '11, 8:00 am
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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Originally Posted by patrick457 View Post
Actually, AFAIK the cups of wine really have no formal designations in Judaism. There is the Ashkenazic custom of filling the 'Cup of Elijah after the third cup (and the 'Cup of Miriam' that some also fill beside Elijah's at this point, just to be gender-equal ), but beyond this, the cups are just called, for lack of a better term, 'first cup' or 'second cup' and so on. Now a number of folks today (mostly Christians or Messianic Jews) may try to apply different names for each cup, but these are all unofficial, and the names could vary depending on the Seder.

With all due respect to Mr. Hahn, I think that the one flaw in his interpretation (which I once held actually) is the assumption that Passover meals during the Second Temple period were performed like modern Seders. On the contrary, it is more likely that the Passover meal - like many other aspects of Judaism - was not yet fully developed in Jesus' time and was yet still in a fluid, unfixed, evolving form. We can't just assume that the ritual stayed as it was after more than 2000 years; we must reconstruct, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to reconstruct exactly what happened in a 1st century Passover celebration.

We do know the basic structure and the basic elements of a Passover meal, but what I'm saying is that it is hard to reenact in detail what Jews two millenia would have specifically done. It's not like they had Haggadahs handy like today. I almost expect that every household or every community would have had their own 'flavor' of celebrating the feast, doing things as their fathers and their fathers before them have done. While rabbinic works such as the Mishna and the Talmud does purport to transmit the way many things were done in those days when the Temple still stood, we can't be too reliant on them and take them on face value as sources for Second Temple Judaism, since it seems that they often actually reflect more 'how we (the rabbis) would have wanted things done' than 'how things were done'. In short, more of an ideal fantasy than historical reality.
Interesting as always Patrick. So do you think Jesus' refusal of wine prior to his being nailed to the cross and drinking of the wine just before death would have been a sign to those present that the passover was being extended to his crucifixtion, that the passover included his crucifixion and ended with the drinking of the wine on the cross?

This is the position of Brant Pitre in his book Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist. I would be very interested to hear your opinion, even if it is "I don't know."


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  #10  
Old Dec 15, '11, 9:33 am
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DENNYINMI DENNYINMI is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

With all due respect to Mr. Hahn, I think that the one flaw in his interpretation (which I once held actually) is the assumption that Passover meals during the Second Temple period were performed like modern Seders. On the contrary, it is more likely that the Passover meal - like many other aspects of Judaism - was not yet fully developed in Jesus' time and was yet still in a fluid, unfixed, evolving form. We can't just assume that the ritual stayed as it was after more than 2000 years; we must reconstruct, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to reconstruct exactly what happened in a 1st century Passover celebration..........Quote Patrick457....

I disagree. One would have to remember the "Passover" would have been taken into account from the time of Moses.

Not a 1st century Passover celebration.

Passover would have been developed from the time of Exodus.

The 4th cup, from the branch, while on the Cross is the final cup, "It is finished".....
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  #11  
Old Dec 15, '11, 11:28 am
Evan Evan is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

I figure, that since they went out to the garden of Gethsemine singing the Hallel (which is done AFTER the meail), that they had finished their Passover meal. All the cups, the lamb, the bitter herbs, the haroset, etc.
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  #12  
Old Dec 15, '11, 2:14 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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Originally Posted by DENNYINMI View Post
With all due respect to Mr. Hahn, I think that the one flaw in his interpretation (which I once held actually) is the assumption that Passover meals during the Second Temple period were performed like modern Seders. On the contrary, it is more likely that the Passover meal - like many other aspects of Judaism - was not yet fully developed in Jesus' time and was yet still in a fluid, unfixed, evolving form. We can't just assume that the ritual stayed as it was after more than 2000 years; we must reconstruct, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to reconstruct exactly what happened in a 1st century Passover celebration..........Quote Patrick457....

I disagree. One would have to remember the "Passover" would have been taken into account from the time of Moses.

Not a 1st century Passover celebration.

Passover would have been developed from the time of Exodus.

The 4th cup, from the branch, while on the Cross is the final cup, "It is finished".....
That's not what I'm saying. What I mean is that, you just can't look at a modern Seder or leaf through a Haggadah and assume uncritically that the ritual performed or described is exactly the same as practiced 2000 or even 3000 years ago. It would be like assuming that the order of Mass as said in churches today is the same as was performed in the 12th, the 8th or even the 2nd or 1st century: the gestures, words, etc. The basic structure would have still been the same, but I expect the ritual would have not: it would have been honed, adapted and tidied up more and more as time went.

For the record, the Haggadah itself could not have been compiled earlier than the time of Rabbi Yehudah bar Ilai (AD 170), since he was the latest person to be quoted therein.
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Old Dec 15, '11, 2:34 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Interesting as always Patrick. So do you think Jesus' refusal of wine prior to his being nailed to the cross and drinking of the wine just before death would have been a sign to those present that the passover was being extended to his crucifixtion, that the passover included his crucifixion and ended with the drinking of the wine on the cross?

This is the position of Brant Pitre in his book Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist. I would be very interested to hear your opinion, even if it is "I don't know."


-Tim-
I don't know!

But to be serious, no, I'm not so sure about the analogy of the fourth cup, because I don't know whether there indeed already was a formalized ritual analogous to the practice of drinking four cups back then. However, I think that both incidents do harken back to Jesus' words: "I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." His death thus marks a new age: the advent of the Kingdom.
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Old Dec 16, '11, 11:11 am
Nicea325 Nicea325 is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

Quote:
Originally Posted by James_2:24 View Post
I'm sure some of you have heard Scott Hahn's talk entitled: "The 4th cup". I have a quick question regarding these cups of the Last Supper: Where are the 1st two cups? I understand the 3rd cup to be the cup of Jesus' blood, and the 4th cup to be the wine on the hyssop branch on the Cross... but where are the first 2?
The Cup of Santification- Cup 1 (Festival Blessing)
The Cup of Righteousness- Cup 2 ( Passover Narrative & Little Hallel (Psalm
The Cup of Blessing- Cup 3 (Main meal: eat roatsed lamb, unleavened bread, bitter herbs and spices.)

The Cup of Consummation or "It is Finished"- Cup 4. Jesus said on the cross: IT IS FINISHED
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Old Dec 16, '11, 3:04 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: The 4 cups of the Last Supper

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The Cup of Santification- Cup 1 (Festival Blessing)
The Cup of Righteousness- Cup 2 ( Passover Narrative & Little Hallel (Psalm
The Cup of Blessing- Cup 3 (Main meal: eat roatsed lamb, unleavened bread, bitter herbs and spices.)

The Cup of Consummation or "It is Finished"- Cup 4. Jesus said on the cross: IT IS FINISHED
I took the liberty of examining a number of Haggadahs available on the Internet, Jewish and non-Jewish. Sure enough there was a variety of names, or a lack thereof.

Both this one, this one and this one do not give any of the cups any formal names. This one names the four cups as 'Cup of Sanctification'-'Cup of Redemption'-'Cup of Blessing'-'Cup of Acceptance'. This version dubs them as 'Cup of Sanctification and Freedom'-'Cup of Deliverance'-'Cup of Redemption'-'Cup of Thanksgiving and Hope'. This one gives each cup the names 'Kiddush' (Blessing)-'Makkot' (Plagues)-'Ha-Geulah' (Redemption)-'Hallel' (Praise). This one only gives the first cup a formal name: 'Kadesh' (Blessing), and calls the rest 'Kos Sheni' (Second Cup), 'Kos Sh'lishi' (Third Cup), and 'Kos Revi'i' (Fourth Cup).
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