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  #16  
Old Dec 15, '11, 4:17 pm
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donsnow donsnow is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

Good evening, all,

According to Mosaic law, David was guilty of breaking the Tenth Commandment: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his *** nor anything that is his" Exodus 20, 17 DR -Challoner.

David certainly desired Urias' wife, and that's a clear disobedience to the Tenth Commandment.

So, David did sin.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don
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  #17  
Old Dec 15, '11, 4:51 pm
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Originally Posted by donsnow View Post
Good evening, all,

According to Mosaic law, David was guilty of breaking the Tenth Commandment: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his *** nor anything that is his" Exodus 20, 17 DR -Challoner.

David certainly desired Urias' wife, and that's a clear disobedience to the Tenth Commandment.

So, David did sin.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don
Exactly. And he plotted the death of her husband to take what he coveted.
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  #18  
Old Dec 16, '11, 6:56 pm
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Exactly. And he plotted the death of her husband to take what he coveted.

Good evening, Julia,

Yes, he did. And, this story reinforces my opinion that when people break the Tenth Commandment, it opens a spiritual door to break the other Commandments.

God loves you,
Don
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  #19  
Old Dec 17, '11, 12:19 pm
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Originally Posted by Evan View Post
I guess we might consider the timing. If Urias had died before David slept with her, the the adultery would only come from David being married, for when Urias died, Bathsabee was no longer married.
I don't think so. If Uriah had been dead before David slept with her, Bathsheba would then be a concubine, which is an important legal state in the Davidic kingdom, although still inferior to a wife. She would become a wife once David married her.

David was guilty of adultery because he slept with Bathsheba while her husband was still alive. David as a man in those times was permitted to keep multiple wives and concubines (he had already been simultaneously married to Michal, Ahinoam, and Abigail all without moral problems).
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  #20  
Old Dec 17, '11, 9:32 pm
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Darryl1958 Darryl1958 is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
Adultery in Jewish law doesn't go both ways. It is not adulterous for a married man to sleep with another woman--unless she herself is married or betrothed. The contention here is whether or not he slept with Bathsheva while she was legally married.

I can't believe that she wasn't legally married, and that David's real problem was nothing more than procedural, but I think it's far more debatable whether David committed murder. As king, wouldn't he have a right to send his soldiers to war over their wishes--or am I mistaken? To me, the argument that David pulled as fast one by using the rules is more credible.
This is probably a prime example of the wisdom of St Paul in telling us that the law cannot save us.
Catholicism probably has the clearest teaching of any wisdom literature on the intent of the heart being of primary importance here.

David may well have meticulously followed the letter of the law; nevertheless his real intent came shining through. The consequences were therefore devastating, and this is what led to the schism of Israel from Judea one generation removed from David.
The law alone cannot save us. As much as forgiveness was always open to David, the consequences of the sin untouched by the law, but within his heart nevertheless, played out as surely as the consequences of gravity on a falling object.
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  #21  
Old Dec 20, '11, 10:25 pm
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Originally Posted by Darryl1958 View Post
This is probably a prime example of the wisdom of St Paul in telling us that the law cannot save us.
Catholicism probably has the clearest teaching of any wisdom literature on the intent of the heart being of primary importance here. David may well have meticulously followed the letter of the law; nevertheless his real intent came shining through. The consequences were therefore devastating, and this is what led to the schism of Israel from Judea one generation removed from David.
The law alone cannot save us. As much as forgiveness was always open to David, the consequences of the sin untouched by the law, but within his heart nevertheless, played out as surely as the consequences of gravity on a falling object.
Interestingly enough I've read that some Orthodox canons (and maybe Catholic as well?) only punished men for sleeping with married women, even if the men themselves were married. However I don't know enough about canons or what they meant in the past or what they mean today.

However, Judaism does value proper intentions and the spirit of the law, and more than than Paul or Christian writers often credit.
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  #22  
Old Dec 20, '11, 10:48 pm
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

I keep seeing the thought that 'if' Uriah was dead before David slept with Bathsheba. Isn't scripture pretty clear on that?

In 2 Samuel 11 the story is laid out for us. He see's Bathsheba and finds out she is Uriah's wife. Even after knowing she was married he sends his messengers to get her and bring her to him. He sleeps with her, knowing full well she is married. She sends him a message later and says "I am pregnant."

David then tries to get Uriah to sleep with her so that Uriah will think it is his child. He is trying to cover up his sin. Not only has he sinned but he is knowingly trying to hide it. Uriah is too worried about his fellow warriors who are still out fighting, that he refuses to go home and enjoy himself. That is when David decides to have him sent to the front line to die.

No matter how we look at it, David impregnated another mans wife and then when the other man wouldn't fall for his deception to cover it up, had him killed. Moreover verse 27 says specifically, "this thing which David had done, was displeasing to the Lord."

No matter how we want to twist scripture or interpret the word 'adultery' to fit the situation, David sinned.

http://vulgate.org/ot/2samuel_11.htm
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  #23  
Old Dec 25, '11, 2:24 am
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
Interestingly enough I've read that some Orthodox canons (and maybe Catholic as well?) only punished men for sleeping with married women, even if the men themselves were married. However I don't know enough about canons or what they meant in the past or what they mean today.

However, Judaism does value proper intentions and the spirit of the law, and more than than Paul or Christian writers often credit.
Sure. I don't think that Paul was creating an entirely different tradition with his words, but was operating from within the larger traditions of Judaism at the time. The 'law that is written on our hearts' preceded Paul in Judaism, and it describes an understanding of the law that is fully aware of intention as being primary determinate of good and evil.

There were also traditions in Judaism where the law was stifling and bore little witness to either intention or consequence. Jesus himself balked at these.
Speaking of Judaism as a homogeneous whole, or even Catholicism in the same way, is too much of a generalization about either. the worlds of Paul nevertheless set the whole of Christianity on a definite path in terms of the law and the internal state of the heart.
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  #24  
Old Dec 26, '11, 2:02 am
chosen people chosen people is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Originally Posted by Crumpy View Post
Ran across this essay which illustrates some logic within modern Judaism about what David's sin was with respect to Bathsheba and Uriah. (see 2 Sam)

http://torahideals.com/essays-and-im...and-bathsheba/

The essay at the link argues that David was not guilty of adultery or murder, but that he did sin in a very subtle way, against following the law of God.
Thank you so much for posting this link and starting this thread.

For clarity, I will quote the problem as listed in the link:

"Even without the Talmud’s admonition, it is impossible to reconcile the simple reading of the text with Torah law. According to Jewish law, an adulteress is forbidden to marry a man with whom she committed adultery, even after divorce or the death of her husband. Any descendant from such a union would be a mamzer, i.e., illegitimate, and would thus be disqualified both from reigning as king and from marrying into the general community of permitted Jewish women. Because David remained married to Bathsheba after the incident without reprimand, and because their son, Solomon, was allowed to rule and perpetuate the messianic line, we have no choice but to conclude that David, whatever his sin may have been concerning Bathsheba, did not commit adultery."

We know the problem and we know the solution. Judaism is an intellectual, questioning religion applying logically the legal principles of Torah. Here we see the way we get from the problem to the solution. This is what is discussed in the article.

This is pretty basic stuff from a Jewish point of view. In fact, a knowledgeable Jew reading the text would have additional understanding of the text, for example, the Batsheva was bathing as part as the normal cleansing ritual after menstruation.

It is also clear, that a Christian, believing that their god is also the Messiah ben David, has no interest in fostering either illegitimacy or adultery on the line of David.

However, by the responses we see how differently the Jew reads and understands the Jewish scriptures than the way of the Christian. One poster mistakenly interprets the Talmud as meaning that David committed no sin rather than that he did not commit the sin of murder or adultery. In good Christian fashion, they solve the problem through David's repentance, as if this would suddenly turn Solomon from being illegitimate, if that was the case.

Others attempted to argue Jewish law without any real understanding of the meaning of "Get" or "Agunot" or "Mamzer" in Jewish law.

The best response was by the poster who referred to not coveting your neighbor's wife. Indeed, this commandment is different from others in that it takes place in your heart. It does not require formally injuring another or even carrying out the feeling. Yet it is a sin against God.
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  #25  
Old Dec 26, '11, 3:01 am
Biblepoe Biblepoe is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpy View Post
Ran across this essay which illustrates some logic within modern Judaism about what David's sin was with respect to Bathsheba and Uriah. (see 2 Sam)

http://torahideals.com/essays-and-im...and-bathsheba/

The essay at the link argues that David was not guilty of adultery or murder, but that he did sin in a very subtle way, against following the law of God.
It definitely seems that David did sin. Why else would God kill an infant?
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  #26  
Old Dec 26, '11, 12:58 pm
yaremasih yaremasih is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

my idea
story David is a great crime

Perhaps worse is the story of Solomon's idolatry
Idolatry that the Messenger of God
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  #27  
Old Dec 26, '11, 2:45 pm
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donsnow donsnow is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Originally Posted by chosen people View Post
Thank you so much for posting this link and starting this thread.

........................................ ........................................ ........................................ .

The best response was by the poster who referred to not coveting your neighbor's wife. Indeed, this commandment is different from others in that it takes place in your heart. It does not require formally injuring another or even carrying out the feeling. Yet it is a sin against God.

Good afternoon, chosen people,

I'm honored.... I was just following Jesus' example.

God loves you,
Don
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God is love - St. John

Prayer is the purest form of human love - Don D. Snow

We're all God's creatures...and some humans can be His children. - Don D. Snow

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  #28  
Old Jan 5, '12, 4:19 pm
Ubenedictus Ubenedictus is offline
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Default Re: Uriah and Batsheba: David-murder and adultery?

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
Where does the Torah say that a man is guilty of adultery because a) he's married and b) he has the intent to commit adultery? It doesn't.

Catholicism does, but the Torah doesn't assign the same responsibilities and prohibitions universally, much less sexual responsibilities and prohibitions. Fathers are responsible for guarding their daughters virginity, but not their sons'. A kohen cannot marry a non-virgin, but everybody else can. And the only verses condemning a married man to adultery are concerned with a married man and a married woman--not an unmarried woman.



My comment was a joke, but in all seriousness Michal's lot is unfair. It's naive to say that only God is pulling the strings. We don't have Michal's side of the story because men decided it wasn't relevant for scripture. Looks like our world at work.



I never said he didn't break the law or he didn't sin.

I only said, if David is guilty of adultery it's not because he's a married man. He is guilty of adultery only if Bathsheva is married.
u made some quotes but none of them imply that if a married man sleeps with an unmarried woman, the man has not commited adultery. For me the man commited adultery and the woman fornication.
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