Show about Gay Animals

[Joe 5859]

The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family, and has a book Defending a Higher Law, which addresses many of these arguments, including the one about "gay animals".

The full text is available for free on their website:

Defending a Higher Law

Look at pages 89-94 where it specifically addresses this claim.

I've always thought this was kind of a goofy argument. I mean, even if it's true, there are other animals who eat their young. Some animals eat garbage. Should we all start doing those things?

[AnneElizabeth]

I didn't read all the posts here, but from what I did see, all (ok, editing here- not all of you, but some I have read) of you are coming at this from the entirely wrong direction.

We do not worship nature. Even if an animal was 'gay', it makes no difference or not as to whether homosexuality is ok or not. It such a SILLY premise to argue on!!!

The precise reason Christ came was to save sinners. Meaning there is such a thing as SIN. If one is going to argue on the premise that an animal is gay therefore it is natural and ok, then why stop there... Why not murder also? Sure, I've seen two male rabbits try and mate with each other. I have also had pet hamster eat her babies. I have seen one animal lash out and peck and bite and scratch another for no apparent reason other than to cause harm and death to the other. Animals are not 'pure' as some try to paint them as. (That being said, I have a few 'good' animal stores to share too.) Because of the fall of man, original sin, ALL of nature was effected.

Do we think we should act on the same level as animals? Do we use animals as the basis of how we should act? Good luck with that ever being a great way to live life. Sorry, but there is some really gruesome things in nature.

The purpose of SUPERNATURAL (which is God.. and notice here I did not say "paranormal".) is to RISE above. Rise above what? That which AILS nature... which is SIN.

People who argue over this are misinformed to think that nature is God. That is the sin of idolatry. God MADE the natural world, but it like us has suffered the effects of original sin.

I read something once in a book about G. K. Chesteron (The Apostle of Common Sense-Dale Alquist) that states this...

"Chesteron says men do not grow tired of evil but of good. They become weary of joy. They stop worshipping God and start worshiping idols, their own bad imitations of God, and they become as wooden as the thing they worship. They start worshiping nature and become UNNATURAL . They start worshiping sex and become perverted. Men start lusting after men and become unmanly."

The same can be of women who 'worship' femininity.. "feminists' they call themselves, but they are the most unfeminine! Same with some who worship 'a faith" and become unfaithful hypocrites.

[Layman F]

*The edit: Anne, this was about a nonbeliever's argument. They won't accept God in their equation.*


http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-and-evolution
This may be of interest, as well as the article linked at the bottom of that page. What are we defining "gay" as, in animals? Can animals love each other as we humans do? Are they looking for sexual release? That may need to be addressed in order to effectively discuss the subject with your friend. The little reading I've done from truly scientific sources seems to say that it occurs when there are imbalances in the breeding population. Too many male:female, you get male pairs, and visa versa. I have a few queer friends, and the constant I encounter once we are close enough to be open, is that all seem to have had an episode of sexual abuse in their formative years. Obviously few are comfortable enough to admit this to me, and it isn't enough to really make a go at that carries weight. My thoughts are this: Geneticists have identified what they call the "warrior gene", which many murderers and serial killers share. Many others also have this gene, but aren't killers. They theorize that the difference is upbringing, and "nurture", not "nature". If homosexuality is inherent in some, why can twins have different sexual orientations? Elton John's long time lover has an identical twin that's heterosexual. What if there's a genetic predisposition, but it has to be activated, for lack of a better term, to be homosexual? It would display itself as "born gay", because the stimuli occur before sexual orientation can be displayed.

[Elixir]

Is there really ANY surprise that animals will act like, well...animals and crawl up on just about anything if they're fired up enough.

People who think animals can be "gay" obviously never spent any time around farms or had dogs or other pets. Animals can, and will, have sex with anything that feels good. It's one reason they're called animals and not human.

[damian clarke]

Originally Posted by puzzleannie

there is no such thing as a gay animal
gay is a word applied to a subculture among human homosexuals who adopt a certain lifestyle. Not all homosexuals use or welcome the appalation.

There are animals who attemp sexual mounting and other behaviors with animals of the same sex, but it is far from natural, and indicates a disorder in the animal, hormonal for instance, or more commonly a disorder in their living conditions--captivity, disrupted ratio between the sexes due to predators, loss of habitat etc.

There is no instance whatever of animals in their natural undisturbed state exhibiting these behaviors unless some disorder is present.

I agree with you by and large. There is no such thing and if there was what of it. Animals behave instinctively and not with reason. Before they had the snip my two Jack Russel puppies regularly used to try and mount my cat. She was quite good natured about it. I hardly think I could use this as support for cross species love or marriage.

[damian clarke]

Originally Posted by Joe 5859

The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family, and has a book Defending a Higher Law, which addresses many of these arguments, including the one about "gay animals".

The full text is available for free on their website:

Defending a Higher Law

Look at pages 89-94 where it specifically addresses this claim.

I've always thought this was kind of a goofy argument. I mean, even if it's true, there are other animals who eat their young. Some animals eat garbage. Should we all start doing those things?

Thank you for that link.

[Camillus718]

People who try to point out homosexual acts by animals are misunderstanding what we're talking about when we mention the natural law. When we talk about the natural law, we do not mean "naturalism" or "biologism," where we just follow impulses of nature.

On the other side of the coin, we must not over-spiritualize by over-emphasizing the supernatural aspect of man, because many of the modern troubles we have (like sex-change operations, for instance), hone in on exercising rationality by imposing it in unnatural ways over the body which offends our dignity.

Someone should provide a better way of explaining the natural law than this, but this is my take on it: We, as creatures, sense and interact with the material world. As rational creatures, we can find meaning in the material world. Thus we can view the structure of the body, and find meaning which lies behind it. Animals cannot do this.

[Jn2027]

Homosexual activity is very common among Bonobos (a species of ape) and this has been well-documented. There is also a book called "Biological Exuberance" which documents homosexual activity in many species. I don't think any serious scientist would use the word "gay" to describe an animal, but when speaking informally people may apply such terms to animals. Sex drive and sexual orientation are very much determined by biology, there is more than substantial evidence to back it up. When a heterosexual man sees an attractive woman he experiences a real physical/neurological sensation --- it is 100% biological instinct, it has nothing to do with reason or rationality---no man can deny that. With homosexuals it's the same thing---they have a sexual instinct, they don't reason about it. Nature makes mistakes and puts a masculine-wired-brain in a female body and vise-versa. Please check out the book "The Biology of Homosexuality" by Balthazart. I believe the reason why some religious groups have a crisis over this issue is because they can't admit that they could be wrong about something---I think that is called the sin of pride.

[triumphguy]

Originally Posted by ConfusedTim

I wa shaving a debate with a friend about homosexual marriage and she pointed out to me that even animals are gay and so it must be a natural thing so why does the church go against it (shes an atheist so I cannot refer to scripture).

II wondered if there was any evidence for this or is it another urban myth so i went home and checked up. It struck me that the evidence of homosexual behaviour in annimals is very slim. I went onto one site that listed "over 500 types of animals displaying homosexual tendencies" but there was no real evidence. I especially searched the web for evidence of homosexual behaviour in monkeys, apes etc and couldnt find any.

Would it be possible for someone a show to be done covering this issue? There must be some real experts out there who can de-bunk it.

Bonobos masturbate too. Is that encouraged by the Church?

They also have sex with females who are too young to gestate....

Taking a species of apes (or any animal) as our ethical role models is always going to have problems!

[Gidras05]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

Bonobos masturbate too. Is that encouraged by the Church?

They also have sex with females who are too young to gestate....

Taking a species of apes (or any animal) as our ethical role models is always going to have problems!

Bonobos also have intense orgies to settle societal conflicts. I'm fairly certain that cannot be good for society here. We've seen the downfall of civilization as a result of widespread sin like this, such as the Roman Empire.

[sw85]

Originally Posted by ConfusedTim

I wa shaving a debate with a friend about homosexual marriage and she pointed out to me that even animals are gay and so it must be a natural thing so why does the church go against it (shes an atheist so I cannot refer to scripture).

II wondered if there was any evidence for this or is it another urban myth so i went home and checked up. It struck me that the evidence of homosexual behaviour in annimals is very slim. I went onto one site that listed "over 500 types of animals displaying homosexual tendencies" but there was no real evidence. I especially searched the web for evidence of homosexual behaviour in monkeys, apes etc and couldnt find any.

Would it be possible for someone a show to be done covering this issue? There must be some real experts out there who can de-bunk it.

I don't believe there's anything like "homosexual orientations" in nature. There are instances of animals being driven, by sensory confusion, to copulate with male animals. I have heard of this happening with dogs. Sometimes a dog mounts a female dog, walks away smelling like a female dog as a result, and is then mounted by another male dog who mistake him for a female.

At any rate, whether or not it occurs in nature is entirely irrelevant. What is meant when it is called "unnatural" is that it is inconsistent with the nature of the sex drive, which is ordered toward procreation.

[Credo in Deum]

Originally Posted by ConfusedTim

I wa shaving a debate with a friend about homosexual marriage and she pointed out to me that even animals are gay and so it must be a natural thing so why does the church go against it (shes an atheist so I cannot refer to scripture).

II wondered if there was any evidence for this or is it another urban myth so i went home and checked up. It struck me that the evidence of homosexual behaviour in annimals is very slim. I went onto one site that listed "over 500 types of animals displaying homosexual tendencies" but there was no real evidence. I especially searched the web for evidence of homosexual behaviour in monkeys, apes etc and couldnt find any.

Would it be possible for someone a show to be done covering this issue? There must be some real experts out there who can de-bunk it.

One day I tried to see if my athiest friend would allow me to through poop at him since it was a natural thing for primates to do as a defence mechanism. He obviously wasn't to receptive or accepting of my excuse so I asked why his use of animal behavior was a good enough excuse for homosexual behavior but not a good enough excuse for feces throwing. His reason was since I'm a rational human being and have the ability to control my actions then I would not be excused like an ape would be if I was to through poop. I asked him if rational human beings have the same ability when it comes to who they have sex with.

[yogicat]

I've spent a lot of time on farms, and yeah, same-sex animals do copulate at times. They are animals though, just following their nose and their physical needs more than anything. I don't think animals "love" and they certainly don't think about morality and the like. I don't think you can call male/male relations between animals gay, but I too have noticed the popularity. People are always quoting this as a reason that two human men should be able to marry. I don't see the correlation but then...logic.

[Geist]

Male animals cannot penetrate each other; they're designed to penetrate females in heat.

A dry hump of dominance or boredom gay sex is not.

The talk of "gay" animals is social engineering and anthropomorphism.

Though I did have a male iguana that tried to uh...consummate with my then girlfriend.

I later found out an ovulating human woman and an ovulating female iguana secrete remarkably similar pheromones. Poor guy got all worked up for nothing!

[triumphguy]

When pregnant my wife would lactate when the cat meowed... not sure what my point is, except she didn't have kittens! If they were they would all be out of the house by now, eating mice and looking after themselves!