Fierce debate over Philippine contraception bill

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by Semper Zelare

1. I'm not referring to "Ultra-Orthodox", I'm referring to the Orthodox Jews. I consider that term to be a pejorative. I mean, can you imagine if someone called Opus Dei "Ultra Catholic"... oh wait. Anyways, any Catholic should recognize that Orthodox Jews are the most legitimate form of Judaism today. Yes, obviously all Jews should convert to the Catholic Church, but be that as it may, the Orthodox Jews are the most observant of the kind of Judaism that was around at the time of Jesus Christ.

2. I don't support what the Orthodox Jewish religion supports. Furthermore, I assure you that you are dramatically oversimplifying things when you call what the Orthodox Jews are doing is "Sharia style". It has nothing to do with Sharia. Sharia comes from a religion 1700 years+ older than Judaism. Sharia has judges and courts. Judaism no longer has courts, which is why they can no longer observe many of the Jewish laws.

3. Once again, I don't believe WHAT the Haredi are doing is good. I believe HOW the Haredi are doing it is good. In Israel, the religious groups are prevailing in a culture war with the secular groups. I don't care if that's over banning images of women or segregating buses... if that's what their religious law calls for, very well. But, as an orthodox practicing Catholic, the Catholic Church doesn't call for anything like that.

However, the Catholic Church is a religious group that is losing a culture war to the secularists in America. Well... is it "very different ideas of moral behavior" for me to simply say: "I want the culture to be religious not secular... where are religious forces winning a culture war against secularists? And, in the Judeo-Christian tradition the best example where Judeo-Christian forces are prevailing in a culture war with secularists is Israel".

Instead of asking "Am I wrong?", I'll say, "I am right". Catholics should know that society is not becoming more secular everywhere. Because of the actions of Orthodox Jews in Israel, the society there is actually becoming more religious. We should look into acting similarly albeit for different causes. Thats the Brass Tax.

Well, it's biblical for me to say, that you seem to fall under the people that hate our Master Jesus Christ, and serve another master instead. That's just biblical truth, I'm not attacking you in any way. If this is an attack, how else would you answer the question: "Do you love Jesus Christ or do you hate him?" Your answer is clearly that you hate him.

That way be a decent theological argument (if so it says nothing good about Catholic theology) but its a horrible intellectual one.
The vast majority of people throughout history have been ignorant of Christ and Christianity, obviously they did not love something that they did not know existed.
But according to your logic they must have hated Christ and Christianity instead (even though they didn't know about Christ or Christianity).

[Semper Zelare]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

That way be a decent theological argument (if so it says nothing good about Catholic theology) but its a horrible intellectual one.
The vast majority of people throughout history have been ignorant of Christ and Christianity, obviously they did not love something that they did not know existed.
But according to your logic they must have hated Christ and Christianity instead (even though they didn't know about Christ or Christianity).

I don't know how your brain works. But, your quickly going off topic from my posts, which were admittedly already off topic from the thread.

In what way do people who have never heard about Christ fit into what I said?

I'm talking about an American atheist who does know who Jesus Christ is. Are you aware of the Church's doctrine of salvation to people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? Because it isn't what you're suggesting it is.

In an absence of knowledge of Jesus Christ someone is still capable of achieving salvation, the Church holds that Plato and Aristotle were both saved.

But, again that's not the point here. What I've proven over the last 3 or 4 posts is this:

You hate Jesus Christ. That is what the issue is here. That's why you hate the Church and the Pope, and that's why you love to promote evil. Evils such as contraception, abortion, and everything which violates the Church teaching on sexuality. Which... I also proved cannot be mocked as something subject to change.

You can quip all day long about "well just make sex itself illegal"... I'm not advocating change, I'm simply explaining current teaching. Teaching which has not changed since the time of Jesus Christ. You can oppose Church teaching on sexuality all you want. But, I proved that for all intensive purposes it should be called "Jesus' teaching on sexuality".

You disagree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I will spend time in prayer thanking Him that He is a Just God tonight. No one will escape his Justice.

As for the Haredi, you just made a bunch of charges which I will call COMPLETELY EMPTY until you back them up with some evidence. I will also call them baseless and meaningless without empirical facts.

You can nit pick at what some people might do in Israel. At the end of the day, I got it entirely right in my last post. The Orthodox Jews of Israel are dominating the secularists. They are defeating wicked and evil blasphemers against God. If the Catholic communities in the United States want to defeat the enemies of God, they would be wise to look to the Orthodox Jewish in Israel. Their community is beating evil godless secularists.

I for a third time reject your attacks on them as violent vandals as baseless. And even if it were true, it would represent the outlying fringe, incidents not indicative of the whole movement. Merely indicative of the occurrences of criminality compared to the general populous. Every community has some vast minority of criminality.

Whatever, if you want to grasp at straws rather than deal with the main philosophical arguments which I made, whatever.

And you can't hate something you don't know exists anyways. This is why I think that children should grow up in a society where they don't even know what pornography is, and they will never know what it is. Where people don't even speak the word abortion or contraception, so they don't even know what it is.

Originally Posted by Semper Zelare

how else would you answer the question: "Do you love Jesus Christ or do you hate him?" Your answer is clearly that you hate him.

You didn't object to that, which I knew you wouldn't. So, again, you necessarily hate Jesus Christ. So, for you, somehow my agreement with Orthodox Jews about their Sharia laws is grounds for you not to talk about ethics with me. Well... even though AGAIN, you got that one completely wrong, in that Sharia laws have nothing to do with orthodox Jews. Well, for me, if you hate Jesus Christ, you can have no ethics. And I will therefore conclude this discussion.

I will pray for Jesus Christ to destroy your beliefs, and make your heart cry out for Him in desperation of salvation. No Earthly suffering is worse than eternal punishment.

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by Semper Zelare

I don't know how your brain works. But, your quickly going off topic from my posts, which were admittedly already off topic from the thread.

In what way do people who have never heard about Christ fit into what I said?

I'm talking about an American atheist who does know who Jesus Christ is. Are you aware of the Church's doctrine of salvation to people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? Because it isn't what you're suggesting it is.

In an absence of knowledge of Jesus Christ someone is still capable of achieving salvation, the Church holds that Plato and Aristotle were both saved.

But, again that's not the point here. What I've proven over the last 3 or 4 posts is this:

You hate Jesus Christ. That is what the issue is here. That's why you hate the Church and the Pope, and that's why you love to promote evil. Evils such as contraception, abortion, and everything which violates the Church teaching on sexuality. Which... I also proved cannot be mocked as something subject to change.

You can quip all day long about "well just make sex itself illegal"... I'm not advocating change, I'm simply explaining current teaching. Teaching which has not changed since the time of Jesus Christ. You can oppose Church teaching on sexuality all you want. But, I proved that for all intensive purposes it should be called "Jesus' teaching on sexuality".

You disagree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I will spend time in prayer thanking Him that He is a Just God tonight. No one will escape his Justice.

As for the Haredi, you just made a bunch of charges which I will call COMPLETELY EMPTY until you back them up with some evidence. I will also call them baseless and meaningless without empirical facts.

You can nit pick at what some people might do in Israel. At the end of the day, I got it entirely right in my last post. The Orthodox Jews of Israel are dominating the secularists. They are defeating wicked and evil blasphemers against God. If the Catholic communities in the United States want to defeat the enemies of God, they would be wise to look to the Orthodox Jewish in Israel. Their community is beating evil godless secularists.

I for a third time reject your attacks on them as violent vandals as baseless. And even if it were true, it would represent the outlying fringe, incidents not indicative of the whole movement. Merely indicative of the occurrences of criminality compared to the general populous. Every community has some vast minority of criminality.

Whatever, if you want to grasp at straws rather than deal with the main philosophical arguments which I made, whatever.

And you can't hate something you don't know exists anyways. This is why I think that children should grow up in a society where they don't even know what pornography is, and they will never know what it is. Where people don't even speak the word abortion or contraception, so they don't even know what it is.



You didn't object to that, which I knew you wouldn't. So, again, you necessarily hate Jesus Christ. So, for you, somehow my agreement with Orthodox Jews about their Sharia laws is grounds for you not to talk about ethics with me. Well... even though AGAIN, you got that one completely wrong, in that Sharia laws have nothing to do with orthodox Jews. Well, for me, if you hate Jesus Christ, you can have no ethics. And I will therefore conclude this discussion.

I will pray for Jesus Christ to destroy your beliefs, and make your heart cry out for Him in desperation of salvation. No Earthly suffering is worse than eternal punishment.

How have you proved that?
You have presented no evidence, your claim is backed up by nothing but your opinion.

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by Semper Zelare

I don't know how your brain works. But, your quickly going off topic from my posts, which were admittedly already off topic from the thread.

In what way do people who have never heard about Christ fit into what I said?

I'm talking about an American atheist who does know who Jesus Christ is. Are you aware of the Church's doctrine of salvation to people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? Because it isn't what you're suggesting it is.

In an absence of knowledge of Jesus Christ someone is still capable of achieving salvation, the Church holds that Plato and Aristotle were both saved.

But, again that's not the point here. What I've proven over the last 3 or 4 posts is this:

You hate Jesus Christ. That is what the issue is here. That's why you hate the Church and the Pope, and that's why you love to promote evil. Evils such as contraception, abortion, and everything which violates the Church teaching on sexuality. Which... I also proved cannot be mocked as something subject to change.

You can quip all day long about "well just make sex itself illegal"... I'm not advocating change, I'm simply explaining current teaching. Teaching which has not changed since the time of Jesus Christ. You can oppose Church teaching on sexuality all you want. But, I proved that for all intensive purposes it should be called "Jesus' teaching on sexuality".

You disagree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I will spend time in prayer thanking Him that He is a Just God tonight. No one will escape his Justice.

As for the Haredi, you just made a bunch of charges which I will call COMPLETELY EMPTY until you back them up with some evidence. I will also call them baseless and meaningless without empirical facts.

You can nit pick at what some people might do in Israel. At the end of the day, I got it entirely right in my last post. The Orthodox Jews of Israel are dominating the secularists. They are defeating wicked and evil blasphemers against God. If the Catholic communities in the United States want to defeat the enemies of God, they would be wise to look to the Orthodox Jewish in Israel. Their community is beating evil godless secularists.

I for a third time reject your attacks on them as violent vandals as baseless. And even if it were true, it would represent the outlying fringe, incidents not indicative of the whole movement. Merely indicative of the occurrences of criminality compared to the general populous. Every community has some vast minority of criminality.

Whatever, if you want to grasp at straws rather than deal with the main philosophical arguments which I made, whatever.

And you can't hate something you don't know exists anyways. This is why I think that children should grow up in a society where they don't even know what pornography is, and they will never know what it is. Where people don't even speak the word abortion or contraception, so they don't even know what it is.



You didn't object to that, which I knew you wouldn't. So, again, you necessarily hate Jesus Christ. So, for you, somehow my agreement with Orthodox Jews about their Sharia laws is grounds for you not to talk about ethics with me. Well... even though AGAIN, you got that one completely wrong, in that Sharia laws have nothing to do with orthodox Jews. Well, for me, if you hate Jesus Christ, you can have no ethics. And I will therefore conclude this discussion.

I will pray for Jesus Christ to destroy your beliefs, and make your heart cry out for Him in desperation of salvation. No Earthly suffering is worse than eternal punishment.

Why would I hate a fictional being

I have no good reason to believe in Jesus Christ, so I don't.

[Holly3278]

Originally Posted by 4Squarebaby

Contraception is legal in the Republic of the Philippines and always has been. The bill is about having the government aid in efforts of educating and distributing different forms of contraception.

Oh I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. That said, it is really sad that contraception is legal in this nation where the majority of people are Catholics. I fear that any nation that has legalized the use of contraceptives will eventually legalize abortion because if Planned Parenthood and their ilk are allowed to distribute contraception, they'll inevitable push abortion onto the people too.

[4Squarebaby]

Originally Posted by Holly3278

Oh I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. That said, it is really sad that contraception is legal in this nation where the majority of people are Catholics. I fear that any nation that has legalized the use of contraceptives will eventually legalize abortion because if Planned Parenthood and their ilk are allowed to distribute contraception, they'll inevitable push abortion onto the people too.

They got much of their legal system from the US. It is a secular government although the Bishops are more likely to threaten consequences to politicians then American Bishops are. The country did vote in the death penalty only to have a president drop it by executive order, many say to lure a Papal visit. And their is an active Islamic separatist movement fighting for their rights. Among those they have are being almost the only Filipinos who can divorce.

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by Semper Zelare

I don't know how your brain works. But, your quickly going off topic from my posts, which were admittedly already off topic from the thread.

In what way do people who have never heard about Christ fit into what I said?

I'm talking about an American atheist who does know who Jesus Christ is. Are you aware of the Church's doctrine of salvation to people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? Because it isn't what you're suggesting it is.

In an absence of knowledge of Jesus Christ someone is still capable of achieving salvation, the Church holds that Plato and Aristotle were both saved.

But, again that's not the point here. What I've proven over the last 3 or 4 posts is this:

You hate Jesus Christ. That is what the issue is here. That's why you hate the Church and the Pope, and that's why you love to promote evil. Evils such as contraception, abortion, and everything which violates the Church teaching on sexuality. Which... I also proved cannot be mocked as something subject to change.

You can quip all day long about "well just make sex itself illegal"... I'm not advocating change, I'm simply explaining current teaching. Teaching which has not changed since the time of Jesus Christ. You can oppose Church teaching on sexuality all you want. But, I proved that for all intensive purposes it should be called "Jesus' teaching on sexuality".

You disagree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I will spend time in prayer thanking Him that He is a Just God tonight. No one will escape his Justice.

As for the Haredi, you just made a bunch of charges which I will call COMPLETELY EMPTY until you back them up with some evidence. I will also call them baseless and meaningless without empirical facts.

You can nit pick at what some people might do in Israel. At the end of the day, I got it entirely right in my last post. The Orthodox Jews of Israel are dominating the secularists. They are defeating wicked and evil blasphemers against God. If the Catholic communities in the United States want to defeat the enemies of God, they would be wise to look to the Orthodox Jewish in Israel. Their community is beating evil godless secularists.

I for a third time reject your attacks on them as violent vandals as baseless. And even if it were true, it would represent the outlying fringe, incidents not indicative of the whole movement. Merely indicative of the occurrences of criminality compared to the general populous. Every community has some vast minority of criminality.

Whatever, if you want to grasp at straws rather than deal with the main philosophical arguments which I made, whatever.

And you can't hate something you don't know exists anyways. This is why I think that children should grow up in a society where they don't even know what pornography is, and they will never know what it is. Where people don't even speak the word abortion or contraception, so they don't even know what it is.



You didn't object to that, which I knew you wouldn't. So, again, you necessarily hate Jesus Christ. So, for you, somehow my agreement with Orthodox Jews about their Sharia laws is grounds for you not to talk about ethics with me. Well... even though AGAIN, you got that one completely wrong, in that Sharia laws have nothing to do with orthodox Jews. Well, for me, if you hate Jesus Christ, you can have no ethics. And I will therefore conclude this discussion.

I will pray for Jesus Christ to destroy your beliefs, and make your heart cry out for Him in desperation of salvation. No Earthly suffering is worse than eternal punishment.

I have already provided some evidence (unlike you).

But I am perfectly willing to provide more.

Here are some quotes from news articles about the Haredi behavior in Israel you find so noble:

Gender-segregated buses on routes in ultra-Orthodox areas have become more common over recent years, part of a growing trend by religious Jewish extremists to shun women from the public sphere.

There have been numerous cases of verbal abuse and violence directed at women who refused to sit at the back of buses, and critics warned that Israel was becoming more like Iran.
Source:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...309257516.html

JERUSALEM — Israeli police say they have urged Jerusalem’s city hall to cancel some results from a recent local election after a group of ultra-Orthodox Jews prevented some women from voting.

TV video showed a group of ultra-Orthodox Jews screaming at a few dozen women at a polling station and then pushing them away. Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said police at the scene saw “a large number” of women obstructed from voting.
Source:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...gxO_story.html

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by Semper Zelare

I don't know how your brain works. But, your quickly going off topic from my posts, which were admittedly already off topic from the thread.

In what way do people who have never heard about Christ fit into what I said?

I'm talking about an American atheist who does know who Jesus Christ is. Are you aware of the Church's doctrine of salvation to people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? Because it isn't what you're suggesting it is.

In an absence of knowledge of Jesus Christ someone is still capable of achieving salvation, the Church holds that Plato and Aristotle were both saved.

But, again that's not the point here. What I've proven over the last 3 or 4 posts is this:

You hate Jesus Christ. That is what the issue is here. That's why you hate the Church and the Pope, and that's why you love to promote evil. Evils such as contraception, abortion, and everything which violates the Church teaching on sexuality. Which... I also proved cannot be mocked as something subject to change.

You can quip all day long about "well just make sex itself illegal"... I'm not advocating change, I'm simply explaining current teaching. Teaching which has not changed since the time of Jesus Christ. You can oppose Church teaching on sexuality all you want. But, I proved that for all intensive purposes it should be called "Jesus' teaching on sexuality".

You disagree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I will spend time in prayer thanking Him that He is a Just God tonight. No one will escape his Justice.

As for the Haredi, you just made a bunch of charges which I will call COMPLETELY EMPTY until you back them up with some evidence. I will also call them baseless and meaningless without empirical facts.

You can nit pick at what some people might do in Israel. At the end of the day, I got it entirely right in my last post. The Orthodox Jews of Israel are dominating the secularists. They are defeating wicked and evil blasphemers against God. If the Catholic communities in the United States want to defeat the enemies of God, they would be wise to look to the Orthodox Jewish in Israel. Their community is beating evil godless secularists.

I for a third time reject your attacks on them as violent vandals as baseless. And even if it were true, it would represent the outlying fringe, incidents not indicative of the whole movement. Merely indicative of the occurrences of criminality compared to the general populous. Every community has some vast minority of criminality.

Whatever, if you want to grasp at straws rather than deal with the main philosophical arguments which I made, whatever.

And you can't hate something you don't know exists anyways. This is why I think that children should grow up in a society where they don't even know what pornography is, and they will never know what it is. Where people don't even speak the word abortion or contraception, so they don't even know what it is.



You didn't object to that, which I knew you wouldn't. So, again, you necessarily hate Jesus Christ. So, for you, somehow my agreement with Orthodox Jews about their Sharia laws is grounds for you not to talk about ethics with me. Well... even though AGAIN, you got that one completely wrong, in that Sharia laws have nothing to do with orthodox Jews. Well, for me, if you hate Jesus Christ, you can have no ethics. And I will therefore conclude this discussion.

I will pray for Jesus Christ to destroy your beliefs, and make your heart cry out for Him in desperation of salvation. No Earthly suffering is worse than eternal punishment.

The Catholic Church itself (especially in the person of Pope John Paul II) says that women are equal to men and that they should not be shunned or legally discriminated against. Yet that is exactly what the Ultra-Orthodox in Israel are doing.

As a Catholic, how can you approve of that?

[AngryAtheist8]

Its worth noting that the Israeli Ultra-Orthodox are not a persecuted minority, but rather an entitled and privileged group that takes more than it contributes to Israel.

Here are some more news articles for a bit of context:

Ben-Gurion later exempted several hundred ultra-Orthodox male seminary students from the draft and gave them government stipends to let them rebuild the great seats of Jewish learning destroyed in the Nazi Holocaust.

That move has come to haunt the country: The group of exempted seminary students now numbers in the tens of thousands, and the ultra-Orthodox minority's high birthrate, dependence on state handouts and evasion of military duty have created a deep rift in the country.

The ultra-Orthodox are now approaching a sixth of Israel's 6 million Jews, and they are joined by even larger numbers of other groups of religious Jews. With seven children and more commonplace, their numbers are rising, and with them their determination to impose some of their norms on society.

Source:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...8f5159567c6a0d

Ultra-Orthodox Jews observe strict interpretations of Jewish law. They generally shun modern society, don't serve in the military and are often unemployed.

Source:
http://www.heraldonline.com/2011/12/...projected.html

P.S. Israeli citizens (both male and female) are required to serve in the military for a few years, but the Haredi are not. So they are supported by the government, but not expected to defend their country, even though everyone else is.